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Author Topic: 1000 point army list for review  (Read 1240 times)

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Offline Elyas

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1000 point army list for review
« on: March 1, 2005, 10:27:45 PM »
Hey guys, I made this army list to deal with Deathskull Orks (lots of lootas). My friend already told me that he plans to include a Land Raider w/ extra armor (negates rolls of 6) in his army, which is why I took 2 fusion guns. My battle plan will be for the Shadowseer and Solitaire to accompany the 2 harlequin squads in a main assault. I will try to keep the force together and assault one mob at a time so that I will be able to combine the effects of the grenades. If/When I need to split my force, the shadowseer will go with the Harlie squad equipped w/ plasma grenades (so that I'll still get the effects of the different grenades) while the solitaire will go with the other Harlie squad (same reason: 2 grenade effects). My jetbike squads will go around the sides in flanking maneuvers, as well as to try and take out the land raider (or any other big armored nasties), and will pop in on their way to give supporting fire (then use their 6" assault move to get back behind cover). Hopefully, I can get around the back (where the land raider I'm guessing will be) and blow his armor up. Then my jetbikes will come around behind the orks and shoot em up from behind. When the harlie squads get near, I'll have the jetbikes support them in the assault (which is why I didn't give em grenades...they'll only assault with the rest of the force). I decided on a solitaire instead of more harlies because I'm pretty sure that my friend will be taking a mega-armoured warboss (and potentially a retinue of mega-armored nobs). I'll try to get the solitaire in base-to-base w/ the warboss so that I can allocate all my attacks against him (I don't have a rulebook handy, but I think I can do that?). The reason I took the shadowseer was actually not because of misdirection (although that's helpful, I think the orks mob rule will give them much better chances of passing the test) but for the veil of tears. Since he's a loota army (and because he's bragged a lot about his army), I know he'll be taking a lot of guns (heavy bolter lootas and a lot of shoota boyz), so the veil might help me get in closer. Well, here it is:

Shadowseer: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol, Bio-explosive Ammunition, D-field, Hallucination Grenades      113 points

Solitaire: Harlequin’s Kiss, Plasma Pistol, D-field, Plasma Grenades   142 points

Harlequin Troupe (6): Harlequin’s Kiss (2), Hallucinogen Grenades, Troupe Leader (w/ Bio-explosive Ammunition)    187 points

Harlequin Troupe (6): Harlequin’s Kiss (2), Plasma Grenades, Troupe Leader (w/ Bio-explosive Ammunition)    187 points

Harlequin Jetbike Squad (3): Fusion Gun, Shuriken Pistol (3), Harlequin’s Kiss (2), Troupe Leader (w/ Bio-explosive Ammunition)   186 points

Harlequin Jetbike Squad (3): Fusion Gun, Shuriken Pistol (3), Harlequin’s Kiss (2), Troupe Leader (w/ Bio-explosive Ammunition)   186 points

Points total: 1001

Offline redbeard

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Re: 1000 point army list for review
« Reply #1 on: March 2, 2005, 10:06:12 AM »
First of all, I don't know if this is what you meant, but it is what you wrote.  Extra Armour plates, for Orks, do not negate rolls of six.  They allow the Ork player to make a save for their vehicle, which ignores each hit on a roll of six.  That is a big difference. 
If he tells you that it allows him to ignore armour penetration rolls of six, he's playing it wrong and cheating you.

Fusion Guns vs. a Landraider:  It has a 14 armour.  Your average armour penetration, at half-range, will be 13. (6 + 3.5 + 3.5).  You have to get within six inches for that - outside six inches a fusion gun cannot harm a land raider at all.  Knowing what you are going up against, perhaps giving your jetbike leaders haywire grenades would be a better choice - you have to get close enough for assault to use the fusion gun anyway.  Or maybe giving haywires to one of your normal harlequin squads. - According to the list I have, you cannot give grenades to the whole biker unit, unfortunately.

Better yet, if you have the models, Death Jesters with brightlances are the best option for handling high-armoured targets.

Quick odds versus a landraider:
1 deathjester w/ birghtlance, at 36 inches will hit 2/3rds of the time.  Of those hits, 1/6 will glance, 1/3 will penetrate.
1 fusion gun at 12 inches will do nothing!
1 fusion gun at six inches will hit 1/2 the time, with no glances possible (ap1), penetrating 10 times out of 36.
1 haywire grenade will hit depending on how the landraider moved, glancing 2/3rds of the time, and penetrating 1/6th.

Weapon:                     Chance to Glance    Chance to Penetrate    Total chance to do anything
brightlance                              11%                        22%                      33%
fusion gun, close range             0                             14%                      14%
Haywire, no move                   66%                         17%                      83%
Haywire, 6 inch move              33%                         8%                        41% 
Haywire, 12 inch move            11%                         3%                        14%

I dunno if looted landraiders get to take advantage of the machine spirit in the land raider.  But if they do, there's a good chance it will keep moving.  As you can see, the fusion gun really isn't the best choice for dealing with very highly armoured targets.  You have to get close enough to assault it anyway to have any chance of doing anything, and if you're going to be getting that close, a bunch of haywire grenades has a much higher chance of success.



Solitaire:  Why plasma pistol?  Give him powerblades instead, which give you the option of using the blades as a power weapon for when you are fighting the mega-armoured boss, and any armoured nobs too, and gives you an extra hand-to-hand attack regardless.  How often do you think you will want to shoot the pistol, instead of fleet-of-footing closed to the enemy to maximize your extra attacks on the charge?

More stats, regarding the choice of powerblades versus harlequin kiss against a T4, 2+ save model:
Each attack you make with the powerblade is 33% likely to cause an unsaved wound.
Each attach you make with the harlequin's kiss is 9% likely to cause an unsaved wound.

This includes your to-hit, to-wound and their save rolls.


Honestly, in such a small point game, using more than a third of your points on six jetbikers is going to put you at a huge disadvantage, especially against a horde army  (we'll leave the fact that he's putting a quarter of his points into a looted vehicle out of this)  For the points you're spending on jetbikers, you could put 3 deathjesters into your army, and buy another full squad of harlequins - or beef both existing squads up to 10 guys each.

Offline Elyas

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Re: 1000 point army list for review
« Reply #2 on: March 2, 2005, 11:06:06 AM »
Are we using the same rules here? Unless they changed something in the new SM codex (in the old one, land raiders have AV14), Bright Lances only glance on a 6 and can't penetrate. I don't know the rules for Extra Armour (I'm just going by what he said), so you could be right about that. And I took fusion guns over haywire grenades cuz of the jetbikes' 6" assault move. I'm hoping that there will be some cover or something nearby the land raider so I can pop out, blast him, and then run back behind cover so he can't shoot back (I'm thinking crisis suits here). If I take haywire grenades for my leader, I will only get one attack (although a good attack), but the main problem is that he will probably have a mob of orks in the way so I won't be able to assault him. And I don't get your chart on haywire grenades and movement. In v4 rules, it doesn't matter whether you move or not: the grenade still does the same thing. I gave the Solitaire the plasma pistol because I wanted to keep him with my 2 harlie squads...which will probably be shooting as well (which is why I gave em bio-explosive ammo). I don't think fleet of foot is that big of a deal, and I want to cut down his numbers before I reach him. Since the Solitaire will be going for the warboss, a plasma pistol is almost a guaranteed wound off him. A Harlequin's Kiss gives me more versatility than powerblades, since it is just as useful against regular orks (against which powerblades would be a waste). In fact, I'm pretty sure the odds of me wounding a warboss is the same whether I take a Kiss or powerblades: if I take a kiss I'm hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and have a 1/6 chance of penetrating his armor; if I take powerblades, I'm hitting on 3+, wounding on 6+, and he doesn't get armor saves. Evidently, the chance of wounding is only a fraction better with powerblades, but against normal orks, the kiss is much more useful. As for the bikers: I originally had a squad of DJ's in my list, but then I realized that fusion guns have a better chance of damaging the land raider. I didn't want to risk taking only one fusion gun (cuz if I lost it, I wouldn't have anything left that could damage the land raider) so I took two squads. I figured that the regular harlie's would be too slow if I gave em haywire grenades, which is why I took the bikes.

Offline redbeard

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Re: 1000 point army list for review
« Reply #3 on: March 2, 2005, 11:43:01 AM »
(You might try using some blank lines to break your post up and make it a bit more readable...)

A brightlance treats all armour values of greater than 12 as 12.  So, you glance on a 4, and penetrate on a 5 or 6.

The difference for how the landraider moves is because the to-hit roll on a vehicle depends on how far it moved.  You automatically hit non-walker vehicles that didn't move.  If a vehicle moves at all, you get a 50% chance to hit it.  If it moves further than a certain amount, you need to roll a 6 to hit.  The grenade does the same thing regardless, but you have to hit the vehicle with the grenade.

Versus an ork warboss (T4) you wound on 5+ with powerblades.  So, 2/3rd attacks hit, 1/3rd attacks wound = 2/9 attacks wound.
With a kiss, 2/3rd attacks hit, 5/6 attacks wound, 1/6th wounds unsaved = 10/108, or roughly 1/11 attacks wound. 

2 in 9 is more than twice as effective as 1 in 11.

Not that you give up the kiss though, you're right, it is much better against the less-armoured ork horde.  The powerblades also give you an extra attack whether you choose to use them or the kiss.  Take both, use the right one for the right opponent.

For fleet-of-foot, with the solitare, lets say you're 8 inches from the orks. 

So you take a pistol shot, 5/6 to hit, 5/6 to wound, no save = 25/36 = .70 dead orks.
Lets say you fleet instead.  On average, you get 3.5 inches closer.

But, for demonstration purposes, lets say you get a less-than-spectacular roll, and only get two inches.

When it comes time to assault the orks, that's two more attacks.  Against the warboss, using powerblades, that's .44 dead orks.  Ok, a little better than half as effective.  Against normal orks, with the kiss though, that's .72 dead orks - marginally better than the shot with the gun.   

PLUS, those kills count against combat resolution.  One plasma shot isn't going to break the orks.  Two more attacks might mean killing everyone within 2 inches of you.  It might mean winning the combat outright.  And that's assuming a poor fleet move.  If you get the average fleet move, you would score .77 wounds on the warboss, and 1.3 wounds on the ork mob - better in both cases.

If the plasma gun was strength 8 and could insta-kill the multiwound orks, I'd say keep it.  But, with the solitare and his increased assault range, if you're in range to shoot the plasmagun, you're also in range to assault, and you're better off with the extra attacks in cc.









Offline Elyas

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Re: 1000 point army list for review
« Reply #4 on: March 2, 2005, 12:18:21 PM »
Oh man, now I gotta go back and re-read like everything.....appa rently my memory isn't as good as I thought  :-\ Thanx for pointing out all that stuff to me, as it is now obviously better to take Bright Lances, and I undertand all your reasoning for everything else. I'll work on a revised list soon, so we can see if I remember all of the special (or just plain ol') rules this time  ::)

 


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