News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)  (Read 17098 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Farseer Lael

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1131
  • Country: au
Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« on: August 14, 2008, 12:28:03 AM »
I'm a big fan of eldritch storm for my jetbike farseer, the ability to spin tanks and then have my shuriken cannons from my other jetbike squads take it out.  But with 5th ed trying to work out if it has been nerfed because it uses a blast template and have to scatter because of it. Or does it remain the same because its done via a pychic power and the rules explity says place.

Thoughts/comments?
Lael Treventhius.
Farseer of the Craftworld Treventhius Psychic Warhost.

Offline srintuar

  • Infinity Circuit | I'm too rational to have a mod-imposed dumb title, I suppose.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
  • Country: 00
  • 電光石火
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 03:53:10 AM »
I'm a big fan of eldritch storm for my jetbike farseer, the ability to spin tanks and then have my shuriken cannons from my other jetbike squads take it out.  But with 5th ed trying to work out if it has been nerfed because it uses a blast template and have to scatter because of it. Or does it remain the same because its done via a pychic power and the rules explity says place.

Thoughts/comments?

Estorm always hits exactly where you want it.
Its not subject to scatter, according to the eldar codex.

Offline CODE BLACK

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 551
  • Country: gb
  • Armies: Space Marines, Space Wolves
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 04:32:17 AM »

Estorm always hits exactly where you want it.
Its not subject to scatter, according to the eldar codex.


P 28 - "The Eldar player places the large blast marker"
Doesn't mention scatter at all. So, just as Srintuar said, exactly where you want it.

So Farseer Lael, I would go with your latter option.

Offline Mordekiem

  • Initiate
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2345
  • That was easy!
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 09:57:26 PM »
Only 'blast' weapons scatter.  Eldritch storm is neither a blast weapon or has a weapon profile with the 'blast' rule in it.  So no, it does not scatter.
Mordekiem

Offline Farseer Lael

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1131
  • Country: au
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 11:40:14 PM »
Cool, that was my thinking as well. I just wanted to check with others to see what they thought. Thanks all.
Lael Treventhius.
Farseer of the Craftworld Treventhius Psychic Warhost.

Offline Erethrin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 785
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 12:52:01 PM »
one thing i was never sure of , does it roll for partial (or does the BRB adress this ? ) and same for yriel eyes ?

Offline HeroZero

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 116
    • 40K blog
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 01:14:01 PM »
After looking at the codex and taking into account the other special rules in there I'd say that Eldritch Storm is a blast weapon and it does have a profile. p.18 looks like a weapon profile to me and per the FAQ E.storm is counted as a shooting attack. With this in mind I'd say that it follows the rules from the BRB, except the design studio on many accounts has stated that the codexes take precedent and not the BRB. So that would mean you follow the rules in the codex where they would be different than in the rules. So Edritch Storm would not scatter just as the Swooping Hawk pack follows it's own rules and not those in the BRB.
After reading the rule for Yriel's Eye I'd say that there is no special rule on how to handle the hits so it follows the normal blast marker rule and there are no partials.

That's how it looks to me.

Zero

Offline Ishmaeil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 08:16:46 PM »
Asking Eldar wether their weapon scatters or not is a little one sided is it not... ;)

Having had this brought up in a recent game and having my local gaming group rule that it does indeed scatter has lead me to stop using Eld storm completely.  (mostly to do with my unerring ability to roll 11+ for scatter...)

To play devils advocate, yes it does scatter.

It's a shooting attack.  The psychic roll just allows you to make the shot, and because of it's use of the template it does means it follows the rules for such.

Can't say I was impressed, but hey thems the breaks.

And just re reading your post, seeing justification for an interpretation because of the perceived meaning of the word place seems wrong, especially as you "place" all blast markers, and then scatter them...

Offline bca11

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Country: 00
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 08:30:10 PM »
What says it scatter?  The book says you place the blast template, which is not the same thing as firing a blast weapon.  Think about it.  The farseer visualizes the exact spot from which it should emanate.  Why should it not hit exactly where he imagines it should? 

Offline Ishmaeil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 08:51:08 PM »
The rules for blast templates.  That's the argument is it not?

I'm not championing this point, it was one thrust on me.  I'm just saying it's there

And as for visulisation, the same could be said for looking down a gun sight... ;)

Offline Farseer Lael

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1131
  • Country: au
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 10:12:06 PM »
The difference being is that you need to pass a pyshic test to cast the power in the first place. Not like a blast weapon where you don't even roll, just place and scatter minusing the BS. It is a little grey area, but the book does say that if there are rules in the codex that override the normal shooting rules, then they are to be used.
Lael Treventhius.
Farseer of the Craftworld Treventhius Psychic Warhost.

Offline Supekele

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 89
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 11:06:21 PM »
That seems a little cold. We're talking about a psychic power. Scattering just seems... weird. If you're going to boil this down to word interpretations, I'm not sure I'd want to play with you.  :P

In my defense, this IS in the gray area, so I'm not just complaining.

Offline Ishmaeil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 398
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 11:11:03 PM »
Wierd you say, like giant space bugs wierd...or fungus warriors wierd...or long dead robots who bare a striking resemblance to an old 80's film weird?

40k is wierd.

I never said I was in favour of scattering the storm, just that it has been deemed to by my local gaming group.

Offline bca11

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Country: 00
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 11:22:30 PM »
2 things:

1. Your local game club is not exactly the ultimate authority (no offense).

2. This needs to be included in GW's next FAQ for Eldar, which will probably be released around 2015.

Offline Evil_Toast

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Country: za
  • All glory to the Hypnotoad .
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 01:21:38 AM »
2. This needs to be included in GW's next FAQ for Eldar, which will probably be released around 2015.

Which means it wont be . Instead we will get a FAQ entry in its place about War Walker weapons becoming twin linked somehow . Or other such stuff that makes you go WTF . It's standard GW operating procedure .

I feel it follows its own rules as laid out in the Codex IE no scatter , much like the Hawks grenade pack . 
Models painted 2011 . 2010 in brackets .
Infantry : 0 (32)
Large Infantry : 0 (9) 
Bikes/Jetbikes : 3 (0)
Walkers/MC's : 0 (5)
Tanks : 0 (4)
Large Tanks : 0 (0)

Last unit painted : 3 Eldar Jetbikes
Screw it, I give up.

Offline stezerok

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1150
  • Country: 00
  • For Jason Lezak, and the Missing Photo Op...
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 01:30:38 AM »
hmm... this is an interesting one.

Well ok. For starters. The codex does not specify that the either E. Storm, or Mind War are shooting psychic attacks. Thus one could argue that E. Storm does not require line of sight (Mind War, however, specifically states that it requires ling of sight).

BUT. The Eldar FAQ that was released for 5th edition explicitly states in answer to "which Eldar Psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks":

"A: Destructor, Eldritch Storm, and Mind War"

However, they then have a blurb in parentheses,
"(Though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description.)"

So to conclude. Eldritch Storm is a shooting attack. However it's apparent that both RAI and RAW show that GW specifies the manner in which Eldritch Storm is fired, and it does not scatter. It is merely placed, as written in the codex.

But wait. It gets even better. The heading just above the description of all the psychic powers on page 28 states:

"Unless otherwise noted, these powers work as described in the psychic powers section of the warhammer 40,000 rulebook, are used at the start of the Eldar turn and do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to target."

So, to further the point, as it does not "otherwise note" the power Eldritch storm also does not require line of sight to its target, and can therefore be used inside vehicles that do not have fire points, unlike Mind War (which requires LoS per it's own rules), and Destructor (which specifically states it is fired like a normal shooting attack).

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 01:38:57 AM by stezerok »

Offline Mordekiem

  • Initiate
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2345
  • That was easy!
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 12:29:56 PM »
After looking at the codex and taking into account the other special rules in there I'd say that Eldritch Storm is a blast weapon and it does have a profile. p.18 looks like a weapon profile to me and per the FAQ E.storm is counted as a shooting attack. With this in mind I'd say that it follows the rules from the BRB, except the design studio on many accounts has stated that the codexes take precedent and not the BRB. So that would mean you follow the rules in the codex where they would be different than in the rules. So Edritch Storm would not scatter just as the Swooping Hawk pack follows it's own rules and not those in the BRB.
After reading the rule for Yriel's Eye I'd say that there is no special rule on how to handle the hits so it follows the normal blast marker rule and there are no partials.

That's how it looks to me.

Zero

I stand corrected.  There is indeed a weapon profile for E blast on pg 28 that includes the 'blast' rule.  So yes, I do think that means it would scatter like a normal blast weapon.

Yriels' eye does not appear to be a blast weapon, though.  It says place the marker and it hits everything under it.  The part I wonder about is if "under" means completely under or partially under?  I'm leaning to partially under, but I may be biased because I want to stick him in my army list.
Mordekiem

Offline syth773

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1459
  • Country: 00
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 03:59:25 PM »
so how would it scatter then? would it use the farseers BS, i would be very happy if it used his leadership for the scatter, hmm, i rolled an 8, subtract 10, and hey, i hit what i wanted.

Offline Galadhar

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 09:57:20 PM »
It is an interesting point that at no point until now has the farseer had to 'roll to hit' with the eldritch storm which is what the scatter rules have replaced. As Mordekiem says you wouldn't get to subtract your BS for this very reason.

bca11, don't lose hope just yet... I think Evil_Toast makes some good points against scatter. I'm sure this debate will go on for a while but hopefully a precedent will be set eventually (no one's got time to wait for the FAQ). Personally I think Codex rules take precedent, am I biased?

Yes.
 ::)

Offline Mordekiem

  • Initiate
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2345
  • That was easy!
Re: Eldritch Storm (Scatter or no Scatter?)
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 11:57:59 PM »
It is an interesting point that at no point until now has the farseer had to 'roll to hit' with the eldritch storm which is what the scatter rules have replaced. As Mordekiem says you wouldn't get to subtract your BS for this very reason.

bca11, don't lose hope just yet... I think Evil_Toast makes some good points against scatter. I'm sure this debate will go on for a while but hopefully a precedent will be set eventually (no one's got time to wait for the FAQ). Personally I think Codex rules take precedent, am I biased?

Yes.
 ::)
Why wouldn't you subtract the firers BS?

I alsoam not sure I see where the codex takes precedence over the rulebook.  Both the codex and the rulebook says to place the template.  The codex says that EBlast uses a weapon template and even lists it profile calling it a blast weapon.  The new blast weapon rules require you to roll a scatter dice and 2d6-BS.

I do agree that it should be FAQ'd, but it probably will not be.  GW is terrible at FAQs.
Mordekiem

 


Powered by EzPortal