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Offline Gwaihir

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Hiding behind Harlies
« on: July 23, 2008, 03:47:56 PM »
I had assumed that because of veil of tears, that if an enemy unit shoots at an eldar unit which is hiding behind harlies, the eldar unit wouldn't be getting cover saves.  I was reading the rule again though and think this is wrong since the rule says the shooter can ignore the harlies for target priority purposes.  Since there is no longer such a thing as target priority, this portion of the rule seem to be irrelevant now.

So my conclusion is that if harlies are standing in front of an eldar unit, that eldar unit gets a cover save.  Harlies are a good unit for this since they are hard to shoot and have the invulnerabe save.  Am I missing something?  Does a unit behind harlies get a cover save?


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Offline Banned Solorg

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 03:53:25 PM »
Sure they do!  As per the new rules for 5th (and until they update the Eldar Codex/FAQ) the rules for 5th are in full force.
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Offline Ixe

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 05:12:40 PM »
For RAW you're absolutely right.  And they didn't say anything about it in the FAQ, so I suppose they're happy with the RAW that lets Harlies provide cover saves.  Makes sense -- you have a scintilating psychic veil of illuions between you and your target, it's gonna throw off your aim a little...

Then again, RAI might turn out differently.  Back in 3rd ed, when there was still meatshielding, they made the rules absolutely clear that Stealthsuits could not block LOS.  Of course, I think those rules are gone because Tau Empire was released during 4th ed when meatshielding didn't exist.  At this point, it's just guessing how they want it to turn out.  Certainly, at one point they were opposed to invisible guys being used as screens, but there's a new team in charge of 40k, and many years have passed, so they may be cool with it now.  Especially since the FAQ is silent on the subject.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 05:15:05 PM by Ixe »

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 05:54:10 PM »
Somehow I missed this when I posted up the tactics I plan to use wiwth one of my lists on the Eldar board. This strategy is even more fun once you consider cascading cover saves, so in a pyramid-shaped phalanx everything behind harlies has 4+ cover...

Yep, it's perfectly legal.

Offline Dinendal

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 06:04:05 PM »
lolololololol

Find a clear place on the board.

Position a harlie squad in a big line.

Get all your pathfinders behind it.

Come on, come on ! Ennemy can't shoot the harlie without being close and if they do come close they will have to face 1-2 or even 3 round of shooting from the pathfinders... and the pathfinders have 2+ cover save... add a fortune farseer and you have an non-destructable quarter of the table.
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 06:07:52 PM »
Keep in mind that the pathfinders would grant that same 4+ back to their enemy, totally negating any reason for bothering. Its actually much better for guardians, who will only be firing one weapon and have the range and mobility to move it so it always has clear LOS...

Offline Dinendal

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2008, 06:09:15 PM »
Keep in mind that the pathfinders would grant that same 4+ back to their enemy, totally negating any reason for bothering. Its actually much better for guardians, who will only be firing one weapon and have the range and mobility to move it so it always has clear LOS...

I thought your squads didn't interfer for LOS

edit: misread the own unit part in cover DARN IT !
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 06:11:39 PM by Dinendal »
"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2008, 06:10:30 PM »
Squad members don't block from each other..... models that are under the line of fire count for cover.... enemy or friendly.

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Offline Dinendal

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2008, 06:14:31 PM »
Squad members don't block from each other..... models that are under the line of fire count for cover.... enemy or friendly.

My 7 Cents.

YEah I've just reread the entry... :(

Well, I guess it would still be usefull with a CC oriented army. But even then, with 4+ cover save, they will have a hard time.
"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

Offline The Exile

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 08:30:20 PM »
I just have to say one thing....THATS THE LAMEST RULES LOOPHOLE DIGGING IVE EVER SEEN!  But seriously, why would you even need the Harlequins for that.  Don't like 9 out of 10 eldar players do that anyway; just put the pathfinders in cover.  Its not even a new strategy per the rules. 

Offline DammageInc

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 09:47:35 PM »
Tau stealth suits too, and tau get JSJ ;)

Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 11:51:20 PM »
Well, it balances things out somewhat that harlies also give you a cover save is the eldar player's units shoot through them... this may be little consilation if the eldar army doesn't rely on long ranged shooting, however.


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Offline coredump

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 08:38:42 AM »
Anybody that wants to spend 22pts per model to give their pathfinders cover... go for it.
Personally, I would just put them in terrain...
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Offline nil

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2008, 04:57:27 PM »
I think that doing this would be kinda crummy, and lead to lots of irritated opponents.

Your harlequins can move out of the way during movement, and fleet back into position after shooting.  Plus, they're a good addition to a ranger heavy force anyways.  I think the tactic would be fairly strong.
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Offline coredump

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2008, 08:14:54 PM »
Except they need to move pretty far to get out of the way, and hopefully get a high enough Run roll to move back.
And they are a good addition....unless you waste them playing cover save for some pathfinders.
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Offline Gwaihir

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2008, 11:58:36 AM »
They don't have to move very far at all if you stagger the harlies and the shooters something like this.

 ;D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

Then fleet like so.

 ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D
    :D    :D    :D    :D

You only need to be able to move 1".  The risk is that by being so close, you make the harlies vulnerable to blasts targetting the shooters, but that is only a big risk when the fleet roll is really low.  A decent fleet roll would give adequate spacing to minimize that risk.

The main reason I find the tactic somewhat useful is that I often use harlies to protect wraithguard from a countercharge, and in those instances I am not trying to shoot past the harlies so I don't care about the enemy getting a 4+ save.  A rerollable 4+ cover save for my wraithguard on the other hand is a rather nice benefit.


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Offline coredump

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 01:48:12 PM »
Yeah, when I wrote that I had not thought of the checkerboard method yet...
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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 02:25:35 PM »
The checkerboard pattern is very dangerous because it allows your opponent to target the harlequins by using blast weapons on the pathfinders.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2008, 04:32:46 PM »
Very dangerous?  Nah.  Moderately dangerous, slightly dangerous, yes, but not very dangerous.  The threat from blasts comes if you get a bad run roll, and if he rolls a scatter rather than hit, and if he scatters far enough, and if he scatters in the right direction.  If all that happens, then he can hit some harlies, possibly wound them, and possibly get through the invulnerable save.  In other words, there is a little bit of danger, but not a whole lot.


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Offline Ixe

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Re: Hiding behind Harlies
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2008, 08:04:15 PM »
That's a lot of points for a 4+ cover save.  Where I come from, 4+ cover saves generally don't cost points :P  Obviously, this is for those times when you need cover and don't have it.  But since, on any sort of balanced board, that should be incredibly rare, I don't see this as anything to base army selection on.  It can be useful 1/100 times if you happen to have harlequins as well as some static shooters and not one piece of terrain to put them in, but I wouldn't plan on it being a meaningful battlefield tactic.

 


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