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Offline syth773

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A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« on: July 17, 2008, 01:37:29 AM »
ok, i'm just gonna give a personal rundown on how good i think the individual pheonix lords are in 5th ed, if anyone wants to contribute or discuss anything feel free.

I'll start with what i beleive to be the least effective and work my way up to the best.
Asurmen: Now, i'm not saying asurmen is bad, i just dont think he's very effective.  Asurmen is the most durable of the pheonix lords with defend and battlefate but he is rather lackluster when killing stuff, and you get a pheonix lord for his ability to destroy stuff, not for his ability to take a beating, a wraithlord can fill that roll better and be less expensive.  asurmen can have up to 5 shooting attacks and 5 close combat attacks, the cc attacks being power weapon ones (the dire sword ability really doesnt do much at all) but they are all S4.  i beleive the higher strength attacks of the other pheonix lords are much more useful.  all in all asurmen is reasonably good at killing regular soldiers on most armies but other pheonix lords can simply do a better job at it, and since asurmen is the most expensive pheonix lord there doesnt seem much point in taking him, unless you want him to tie up another indipendent character for a long time (and if you want to do that then a fortune farseer with some warlocks would be a better and less expensive choice).

Jain Zar: Jain Zar, like asurmen, is a good model, the reason i dont like her is that most of her abilities just dont do much most of the time.  war shout and acrobatic just dont do that much at all.  You dont want her to be assaulted in the first place and most enemies on which war shout would be useful have a high enough leadership so as it doesnt bother them.  furious charge doesnt do much either, there are very few models in the game that can match her base initiative of 7 so boosting it to 8 doesnt do much. (could possibly help in a sweeping advance but again, 7 is enough usually).  the extra strength is also not really neccessary as her S6 attacks are enough to wound most regular models on a 2+ anyway.  you could give her an extra attack using her silent death in close combat and furious charge would give her S5 but i think S6 with her regular number of attacks would still be more useful (unless going against tau or guard but in that case it doesnt really matter what she uses, she's going to kill them anyway).  Jain zar is decent, but she just doesnt offer anything really special that you couldnt get just by purchasing a squad or two of aspect warriors for the same cost.

Baharroth: Baharroth is interesting, and can be useful, but not because of his ability to kill stuff.  When i use him i use him as a harasser and delayer.  basically charge a unit, kill a few guys and then either hit and run to get out on your opponents assault phase so you can shoot them on your turn, or skyleap on your movement phase so you can shoot them in your shooting phase.  he is rather average in terms of being able to kill things.  his gun is rather decent but nothing special and in close combat he's actually the weakest pheonix lord in terms of actually killing things, no bonus attacks or bonus strength.  it's also a bit of a waste to try and take down vehicles with him as a single haywire grenade is not that useful in 5th ed as it is unlikely to destroy, or even severly damage a vehicle.  I find him best used in his hit and run roll, basically condensing a squad of swooping hawks down into one model that is probably a bit more effective.

Karandas: Karandas is a close combat powerhouse, just like his aspect warriors.  Unfortunately he loses 1 attack since power fists no longer can be used with regular cc weapons for the +1 attack bonus but in exchange he can benefit from the outflanking rule since he has infiltrate.  Infiltrate itself is nice but being able to come on to the board from a side edge (you can even come directly into your opponent's deployment zone) can be priceless.  i've had him come onto the board in the opponent's deployment zone, beat the crap out of a unit of marines and force them to fall back...off the board.  they shall know no fear doesnt help much when they are right at the board's edge.  he doesnt offer too much more than simply being a close combat sledgehammer, but usually that's enough, his only real weakness, possibly a bad one is that he has to attack last so a unit with power weapons could possibly kill him before he gets to show his stuff.  it's nice to run him with a unit of scorps as they can give him a bit more lasting power.

Fuegan: Fuegan can fill one very important roll in an eldar army.  he absolutely destroys just about any vehicle he gets near.  Firepike, tank hunter, melta bombs, fire axe giving him monsterous creature attacks, he is probably the most effective model in the eldar army in taking out enemy vehicles with the exception of the D-cannon and possibly a wraithguard's gun.  With vehicles being harder to destroy he can be a very valuable asset in an eldar army and is one of the few models who has a resonable chance of actually taking down a monolith.  But he is not only good at taking down vehicles he is a suberb troops killer.  S5 power weapon attacks aside he can also take hits very well from normal troops.  feel no pain is for all intents and purposes a second armor save.  it doesnt work against power weapons but since most attacks are not going to be power weapons it means he take take a huge beating in close combat against normal troops while dishing out a lot of damage.

Maugan Ra: Ok, this guy is probably the only pheonix lord who is really wasted by putting him with a squad of his own aspect warriors.  while he may be the reaper pheonix lord he should definitly try and get to grips with the enemy.  his weapon (both ranged and in close combat) is excellent.  He esentially has an assault cannon with a longer range and pinning.  both fast shot and crack shot can be very useful, fast shot when taking out light vehicles or mowing down light infantry in the open or crack shot against tougher infantry (crack shot is especially useful as ignoring cover caves can be a huge benefit since many armies will be using their troops to gain cover saves and rerolling wounds means you also get a second chance at getting rending on your to wound roll).  Maugan Ra delivers more effective firepower than most eldar vehicles since they miss half the time (his BS7 means he hits on 2+ with a reroll of 5+ on a miss).  also, once he gets into close combat S6 power weapon attacks will shred just about anything he encounters.  I like to run him with a squad of wraithguard as they are both fearless, wraithguard are not aspect warriors so he can join them, they both can move and shoot and while the wraithguard provide valuable protection as he approaches the enemy he provides the close combat power that they lack, a very good combo.  He is also the second least expensive pheonix lord which, while not that important is still something to consider.

so, as far as ranking i would have:
asurmen and jain zar at the bottom simply because of their lack of anything really special that makes them worth getting.
baharroth in the middle simply because of his utility in hit and run tactics.
Karandras is third for being a close combat monster and his ability to either start near the enemy or arriving later on in unexpected places.  the main reason i ranked him 3rd was because he attacks last which can be very bad in certain situations.
Fuegan in second place as he is a tank destroyer as well as a troop killer.  His ability to take out heavy vehicles becomes all the more valuable in 5th ed.
Maugan Ra in first as he can take down just about any kind of troop very well along with light vehicles while at the same time being very nasty in close combat.  He is very well rounded in his ability to kill stuff so i find him the most useful in different situations, the type of model i would play in a tournament where i dont know exactly what i will be dealing with.

this is just my opinion right here, i would like to hear other people's outlooks on what they feel pheonix lords can or cannot do in 5th ed.  in general they are very inefficient models as far as points but they are damn fun to play with.

Offline Lorizael

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 05:28:08 AM »
Quote
beat the crap out of a unit of marines and force them to fall back...off the board.  they shall know no fear doesnt help much when they are right at the board's edge.

ATSKNF means that marines don't ever fall back from CC though...
If they pass they pass, if the fail then they're subject to "no retreat". So they will never be forced off the board after an assault.


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« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 10:29:20 AM by Lorizael »

Offline syth773

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 06:08:16 AM »
hmm, we must have missed that rule when doing that game, well, something new i learned, gotta make sure the marine players in my area know that.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 08:53:46 AM »
I thought that they can still be forced to run away and that ATSKNF and no retreat only come into effect if they lose the initive roll off to get out of combat.

--

I have been taking a second look at the lords myself.  I think that changes to wound allocation make them very appealing as something to attach to my wraithguard squads.  Jain Zar is a superb choice for this.  Her ranged attack actually works really well with the guard's attack since they both have the same range.  She does quite well in cc usually wounding on 2s.  She can make the enemy unit strike at WS1 with the only exarch power which can actually benefit a non-aspect unit.  Wraithguard are already hard enough to kill without needing 5s to hit them in cc.  She is also the cheapest of the lords.  All in all, she has excellent synergy with wraithguard squads.  Her counter attack ability also works well since the guard squad she is attached to can end up being charged fairly frequently.

Maugan is appealing for many of the same reasons, but he doesn't have quite the same synergy with his ranged weapon.  I think I will usually have my wraithguard running when they don't have range to the enemy in which case Maugan doesn't get to fire.

Kharandras also works well attached to a guard squad, but the I1 puts me off just a bit.  Having more attacks than the rest of the lords is quite a benefit though.

I have to agree that Asurman is at the bottom.  I would put Bahhroth down there with him.


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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 09:59:47 AM »
Two comments:
1 - Fuegan is actually better at killing vehicles now than the D-Cannon or Wraithcannon, precisely because of Crack Shot and Tank-Hunters. Even at range he is as likely to get a pen on anything up to armor 13, and against armor 14 he is far superior when within melta range. If you figure that 50% of shots against vehicles in cover will be ignored, a Wraithcannon or D-cannon has only a 1/6 chance of glancing and a /6 chance of getting a pen, which is identical to his firepike at range against a tank in cover.

2 - Consider that the cost of Phoenix Lords includes the cost of both powers, and that a phoenix lord attached to a unit of Aspect Warriors eliminates the need for an Exarch for those powers. In some cases, on squads where you would always buy both powers, the real cost of the phoenix lord is actually less - so for Avengers, where both powers are typically desireable, Asurmen's actual cost is far lower.

I would still place Asurmen at the bottom though, because he is the most straightforward Phoenix Lord of the bunch. Where he does beat the others out is against enemies with a good deal of powerweapons, or a powerfist or two. Asurmen will be able to step into those fights with a good chance of coming out ahead. Asurmen is also the only one of the Phoenix Lords that needn't worry about walking around outside of a supporting infantry unit, because he's got a fair chance of living through a few low AP shots, and wouldn't be worth the expenditure of power by himself. Most other phoenix lords will get targetted by this kind of firepower if the option becomes available.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 10:13:07 AM »
Gustikk's Fuegan comment brings to mind something I was thinking as well.  I don't think those do don't and didn't make frequent use of the wraithcannon really understand yet that it really has lost a lot of effectiveness.  You get a lot of glances with the thing, far more than with any other weapon because unlike anything else (other than the barbed strangler I guess) two rolls rather than one can produce a glance.  Now though glances can't kill so that large number of glances is not as effective as it was.  There is still the glance to death concept, but again only 2 results rather than 3 before will do any actual damage to the tank.  The pens aren't as deadly either since you need a 5 or 6 to destroy and there are two pen results that don't cause any damage.  AP1 is the way to go if you want to destroy stuff, ignoring cover helps quite a bit as well.  Fuegan has both so he is very reliable when it comes to destroying tanks.


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Offline Lorizael

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 10:28:59 AM »
I thought that they can still be forced to run away and that ATSKNF and no retreat only come into effect if they lose the initive roll off to get out of combat.

You're right. I'm a numpty. This is what happens when I post less than 10 minutes after getting out of bed.

Offline syth773

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 11:32:36 AM »
Gustikk's Fuegan comment brings to mind something I was thinking as well.  I don't think those do don't and didn't make frequent use of the wraithcannon really understand yet that it really has lost a lot of effectiveness.  You get a lot of glances with the thing, far more than with any other weapon because unlike anything else (other than the barbed strangler I guess) two rolls rather than one can produce a glance.  Now though glances can't kill so that large number of glances is not as effective as it was.  There is still the glance to death concept, but again only 2 results rather than 3 before will do any actual damage to the tank.  The pens aren't as deadly either since you need a 5 or 6 to destroy and there are two pen results that don't cause any damage.  AP1 is the way to go if you want to destroy stuff, ignoring cover helps quite a bit as well.  Fuegan has both so he is very reliable when it comes to destroying tanks.

crap, i completely forgot his firepike is AP1, that does make a big difference.  as for wraithcannon, i still consider them good, although only against targets with very high armor (13+ usually).  they are still one of the better options for taking down a monolith as it is immune to lances and melta weapons.  basically 2/3 chance to hit, a 1/3 chance to do nothing, a 1/3 chance to glance and a 1/3 chance to pen.  that makes an overall chance of 2/9 chance to glance and a 2/9 chance to pen.  with a squad of at least 5 you're gonna probably get at least 1 pen and 1 glance, probably 1 more of either result.  fuegan is the ultimate tank killer in the eldar army but aside from him wraithguard are probably a pretty strong run for second, again though, their weapons are only more effective against very high armor targets, they are rather wasted in vehicles with armor of 11 or less unless they have nothing else to shoot at.

Offline Draza

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 08:50:39 AM »
Quote
Karandas is a close combat powerhouse, just like his aspect warriors.  Unfortunately he loses 1 attack since power fists no longer can be used with regular cc weapons for the +1 attack bonus but in exchange he can benefit from the outflanking rule since he has infiltrate
IMO his biggest boost is the change to kill zones. Before, you just remove models in b2b before he attacks and your fine. Now, you cannot deny those attacks, you have to cop them. That truly makes him scary. Just need to keep him away from characters and squad leaders and your fine.

Offline flipONE

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 10:19:00 PM »
Don't all the PL's take a hit now though from the new Combat Resolution rules? That missing invulnerable save (except for Asurmen) could end up being a very exploitable weakness, even with just the new shooting/wound rules.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 10:20:39 PM »
Only if you are losing combats.  You shouldn't have the PLs in combats that you are losing.


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Offline flipONE

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 10:32:51 PM »
Just because I shouldn't doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just postulating the 4th Edition reason (or at least what I remember hearing) to why PL's weren't used.

I mean even Karandas strikes at I1 (using the claw), and the others (except Maugen Ra/Fuegen on most occaisions) are generally made for close combat. Barroth's Hit and Run can keep his survivability up, but I mean w/ the new shooting rules/lack of inv. save (xcept Asurman) I could see PL's being focussed upon, and inevitably being rendered useless. Now don't get me wrong I WANT to use a PL (gonna count's as Eldritch Pirate characters), but I'm afraid it'll attract too much fire (or my opponents will kite him) and just be a waste of points.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2008, 11:28:00 PM »
The lack of the invulnerable save is probably the biggest thing working against them.  They are also very pricy.  Yriel and the Avatar can perform about as well in cc, have good invulnerable saves, give nice boosts to the entire army and are significantly cheaper.  They really outshine the PLs in many ways.

There are some aspects of 5th edition though which help the PLs a bit.  One is the fact that wounds can be allocated to them.  If a missile launcher hits my wraithguard squad, I would get no armors save, but I could allocate that wound to the PL and use that nice 2+ save.  Unlike Yriel, I don't have to worry about being instakilled and unlike the Avatar I can attach to the sqaud.

CC has changed quite a bit and many of the changes help the PL.  The entire enemy squad is eligible for wounds so you don't have to worry about the PLs wounds being lost if there isn't enough in his kill zone.  The defender reacts rule can let the PL get in on the first round action even if his squad is charged.  The enemy can no longer remove models from high inititive attacks, so the PL killing stuff isn't going to take attacks away from the rest of the squad.

So there are some changes that I think make PLs better than they were in the previous edition.  They also have a number of qualities that work well with the wraithguard centered armies I use.  I like them better than Yriel because among other things they can't be instakilled and have a better armor save.  These qualities are more useful for my lists that Yriel's abilities.  I don't feel right if my Avatar isn't fortuned, but that takes fortune or some other power away from other units.  The PL can use the fortune given to the squad to which he is attached.  Basically I get more out of fortune with the PL than with the Avatar.  Also a wraith heavy list doesn't need the Avatar's fearless bubble so no loss there either.



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Offline Sapphon

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 05:04:09 PM »
The downside to all that, Gwaihir (good point about allocating AP3 to the Phoenix Lord, btw), is that enemy powerfists and power weapons are largely unavoidable now.  Any squad you charge has a 6" move to get within 2" of a model (which itself is 1" wide) that is in B2B with your Phoenix Lord.  Yowch.
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Offline Gwaihir

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 07:29:18 PM »
You just have to be careful or clever when charging.  Try having 2 wraithguard flanking the PL.  This could make it difficult or impossible to get that threat close.  Get a model in BTB with that threat so it can't move.  Have the PL charge a part of the squad opposite the threat.  There are lots of ways to set things up so the PL doesn't end up getting munched.  It may not work every time, but careful planning will reduce vulnerability.


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Offline syth773

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 08:12:06 PM »
You just have to be careful or clever when charging.  Try having 2 wraithguard flanking the PL.  This could make it difficult or impossible to get that threat close.  Get a model in BTB with that threat so it can't move.  Have the PL charge a part of the squad opposite the threat.  There are lots of ways to set things up so the PL doesn't end up getting munched.  It may not work every time, but careful planning will reduce vulnerability.

i agree with this, it works great when charging when the PL is attached to a unit as you can esentially have "bodyguards" which limit how many models can get into base to base with him.  it can also work when doing the defenders responce move when assaulted but not quite as well since some/all of your models will already be engaged.

Offline HENDYBADGER

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 05:00:21 PM »
baharroth can sky leap in the movement phase then shoot in the same turn?

thats what it seems to imply in the first post!

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: A comparison of 5th ed pheonix lords
« Reply #17 on: August 1, 2008, 06:59:18 PM »
   No he can't, he's not on the board anymore, so I believe it was a typo or a misinterpretation of the rule.

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