Topic: Eldrad, the Staff of Ulthamar, Mind War and you. (Has this been beat to Death?)

[SlaveOne]

So my question is, can Eldrad cast mindwar twice in a turn if he is not in combat?

IMO, yes he can because the staff simply states he can use a 3rd psychic power if he is not locked in combat, even if he has already used the power.

Understandably, a model may only shoot once a turn and psychic powers replace shooting. But i assume this rule would be overidden by wargear or special abilities as with any rule in the BGB.

Please, sit, we''ll talk, have coffee. No big whoop.

[Jedly1]

Yes he can.  Even the people who argue that a regular Farseer with spirit stones cant use two "shoting" powers agree that the staff alows Eldrad to use the same shooting power twice. (2x mind war or 2x eldrich strom).

[Sapphon]

Yes he can.  Even the people who argue that a regular Farseer with spirit stones cant use two "shoting" powers agree that the staff alows Eldrad to use the same shooting power twice. (2x mind war or 2x eldrich strom).

Justify.

We're dealing with two restrictions here, one of which Eldrad's wargear overrules as in the OP, and one of which it does not.
1) Models may only cast one psychic power per turn, unless their rules specify otherwise.
-This is invalidated by the Staff of Ulthamar's rules, which state Eldrad may use an additional power, even one he's already used.

2) Models may only shoot (or use a shooting-replacement power) once per player Shooting phase.
-Nowhere in Eldrad's rules nor in the rules for his wargear is this addressed.  It quite clearly still applies to him, however much Eldar players may not like it.

[Guildmage Aech]

2) Models may only shoot (or use a shooting-replacement power) once per player Shooting phase.
-Nowhere in Eldrad's rules nor in the rules for his wargear is this addressed.  It quite clearly still applies to him, however much Eldar players may not like it.

I agree, this is the rule which prevents him using double mind war. Being able to ignore the limit on the number of times you can use a psychic power is not the same as ignoring the limit on the number of times he can shoot.

Yes he can.  Even the people who argue that a regular Farseer with spirit stones cant use two "shoting" powers agree that the staff alows Eldrad to use the same shooting power twice. (2x mind war or 2x eldrich strom).

But I argue it, therefore your statement is wrong. As a side note, its not a great plan to make vast generalisations about people opinons and present it as a fact. Facts are facts, opions are opinons.

[SlaveOne]

2) Models may only shoot (or use a shooting-replacement power) once per player Shooting phase.
-Nowhere in Eldrad's rules nor in the rules for his wargear is this addressed.  It quite clearly still applies to him, however much Eldar players may not like it.

Is this your house rule? Or is this your opinion? Or better yet is this just your interpretation of the rule? Cause i cant find anywhere it says this. More importantly i cant find anywhere in the BGB the term (shooting-replacement power).

Interestingly enough i cant find anywhere does it say specificaly that a model can only shoot once a turn. One can only extrapolate from the rules on pg. 20 that you have to move on to another unit after comleteing all the steps for shooting. So i agree with your interpretation of the shooting rules.

However my point is... disregard that. My opinion is, wargear and special abilities by interpretation overrule the "basic" rules covered in the BGB. So as Eldrad's staff states he can use a third power, even one he has already used, he should be allowed to cast Mind War or Eldritch Storm twice or a combination of the two. But to further push the envelope of the issue. I am also of the opinion a normal Farseer can both cast Mindwar and Eldritch Storm with the use of a Spirit Stone. Simply because his wargear allows him to.

[Brasidas]

Well

Does his staff allow him to cast "a psychic power he has already used that turn" or a psychic power he has already used except any that are illegal to cast twice that turn"?

[TheOnlySpiral]

It replaces the firring of his weapon yes? So in order to use the power he needs to be eligible to fire a weapon.  He isn't so he can't use the power.

[myles]

Interestingly enough i cant find anywhere does it say specificaly that a model can only shoot once a turn. One can only extrapolate from the rules on pg. 20 that you have to move on to another unit after comleteing all the steps for shooting. So i agree with your interpretation of the shooting rules.

Check page 18, first paragraph.

[SlaveOne]

Interestingly enough i cant find anywhere does it say specificaly that a model can only shoot once a turn. One can only extrapolate from the rules on pg. 20 that you have to move on to another unit after comleteing all the steps for shooting. So i agree with your interpretation of the shooting rules.

Check page 18, first paragraph.

Your right it was typo on my part. I meant to say pg. 18. But again it does not state anywhere you can only shoot once. My point was we has gamers can extrapolate that only once per turn can a unit shoot by reading the rules. But neither here nor there since shooting once is not the subject of the debate.

[Guardian of the Rose]

All points of view here make sense.

ANOTHER FAQ that we need answered.  As it is, none of my opponenets have questioned my ability to use 2 "shooting turn" powers a turn.

To me, 2 Mind Wars and an Eldritch Storm shows some psychic mastery that the Eldar are supposed to have, so I'm playing it as such!

 

[myles]

Interestingly enough i cant find anywhere does it say specificaly that a model can only shoot once a turn. One can only extrapolate from the rules on pg. 20 that you have to move on to another unit after comleteing all the steps for shooting. So i agree with your interpretation of the shooting rules.

Check page 18, first paragraph.

Your right it was typo on my part. I meant to say pg. 18. But again it does not state anywhere you can only shoot once. My point was we has gamers can extrapolate that only once per turn can a unit shoot by reading the rules. But neither here nor there since shooting once is not the subject of the debate.

Wait, so let me see if I have what you're saying down. You're saying that the rules say infantry can only fire one weapon each, not that they can only shoot once, therefore if they 'shoot' with something that is not a weapon it is not forbidden by the shooting rules? Right?

Seems like that has everything to do with the debate to me.

[SlaveOne]

To all who disagree:

Does wargear override the BGB basic rules?

If your answer is yes, then why cannot Eldrad use two psychic powers? Following the rule given by the wargear you can cast a third power even if you have already used it. Simple.

If your answer is no, ...well im not sure what to say since i would assume that it is not possible for anyone in this community.

Why is it so impossible that a model in this game of ours not be allowed to cast second psychic power in the shooting phase?

Wait, so let me see if I have what you're saying down. You're saying that the rules say infantry can only fire one weapon each, not that they can only shoot once, therefore if they 'shoot' with something that is not a weapon it is not forbidden by the shooting rules? Right?

Seems like that has everything to do with the debate to me.

Um... I'm not sure at what you just said. But let me see i f i can answer your question.

Does BGB clearly states that a unit/model can shoot only once? Yes, I agree.

Sooo... I'm not debating that.

I'm debating wether or not wargear allows units/models to override the BGB's basic rule system. Eldrad specifically.

All points of view here make sense.

ANOTHER FAQ that we need answered.  As it is, none of my opponenets have questioned my ability to use 2 "shooting turn" powers a turn.

To me, 2 Mind Wars and an Eldritch Storm shows some psychic mastery that the Eldar are supposed to have, so I'm playing it as such!

 

I too have not been questioned when doing this myself. To further this evidence, i have consulted many members of the GW retail staff at a few locations in two different parts of the country. I also believe i will get the same answer from the "rules boyz" or whatever they are called when i talk to direct services tommorow. Now, by no means are these folks infallible. I just wanted to share that the majority of opinion so far shared in this thread is by no means reflective of the community as a whole. ...obvioulsly.

I know the codex was realeased after last seasons Gamesday and GT events, but Eldrad had virtually the same wargear in the last codex. Can anyone verify what was the ruling last year at these events?

Posts merged.  In the future, just make one post.  LS

[Redlion]

Eldrad, has always been able to cast 2 of the same power, whether it is considered a shooting power or not. As long as I have been playing, and regardless who, or where I played.

Does the term, may use a 3rd psychic power that turn, even one already thrown.
Impose a restriction ? I think not. It lists the restriction of him not being in an assault only, that is the only restriction. Otherwise, he can throw 2 of the same power, regardless of what power it is.

By the same token, spirit stones, allow a farseer to use two shooting powers in a turn as well. Its only restriction thats listed is that it can't be the same power. It does not restrict 2 shooting powers however.

In both of the descriptions of the above rules in the Eldar codex, notice in particular the term....Turn. Does this state shooting phase only. No it does not. Its the whole turn, of the player that has the farseer.

[Guildmage Aech]

Eldrad, has always been able to cast 2 of the same power, whether it is considered a shooting power or not. As long as I have been playing, and regardless who, or where I played.

Therefore using the same logic you would also say that becuase you aren't starving, and no-one you personally know is starving all the people in africa with no food must be lying. Right? You are saying that things have to be in your experience for them to be true aren't you?

Eldrad's staff (and spirit stones) provides an exception to the rule that limits farseers to one power per turn, this means thats the only excepetion you get. Until it says you get to shoot twice you don't get to do it. Basically you're just claiming the "doesn't say I can't" argument to being able to replace your shooting twice.
The rule on p18 clearly states that infantry can fire with one weapon each, the fact that the one weapon is replaced by one psyhic power is irrelevent, because you can still only fire once. Its no different to giving a sergeant a bolt pistol and a plasmapistol and saying he can shoot twice.

The staff does not give you permission to shoot twice therefore you cannot shoot twice. Its crystal clear.

[Minsc]

Does this mean that my Tzeentch Sorcerers with (for example); Doombolt & Wind of Chaos, with a Familar and a couple of Thrall Wizards cannot use both their powers in the same turn, or use Doombolt 2 times the same turn, even though the rules for Thrall Wizards clearly state the opposite?

I'm confused. (And i HATE RAW)

Rules for Wargear > Basic Rules from the BGB, since those are just...well...Basic Rules, who wasn't made up with all the 329462364 different pieces of Wargear that excists in mind.

[SlaveOne]

Eldrad, has always been able to cast 2 of the same power, whether it is considered a shooting power or not. As long as I have been playing, and regardless who, or where I played.

Therefore using the same logic you would also say that becuase you aren't starving, and no-one you personally know is starving all the people in africa with no food must be lying. Right? You are saying that things have to be in your experience for them to be true aren't you?

Eldrad's staff (and spirit stones) provides an exception to the rule that limits farseers to one power per turn, this means thats the only excepetion you get. Until it says you get to shoot twice you don't get to do it. Basically you're just claiming the "doesn't say I can't" argument to being able to replace your shooting twice.
The rule on p18 clearly states that infantry can fire with one weapon each, the fact that the one weapon is replaced by one psyhic power is irrelevent, because you can still only fire once. Its no different to giving a sergeant a bolt pistol and a plasmapistol and saying he can shoot twice.

The staff does not give you permission to shoot twice therefore you cannot shoot twice. Its crystal clear.

Real world logic and philosophy cannot be applied here, in a forum regarding a game with a limited ruleset. But your point is taken.

Casting a Psychic power and shooting a weapon are by definition, two separate things. Just because one replaces the other doesn't mean it takes on the formers attributes, it just simply replaces it.

Your point regarding the "it doesn't say you can't therefore i can" does not apply. Because the wargear literally states "you may cast a third power if not engaged in HtH, even a power you already used." So whether that be a power used in the shooting phase (not a "shooting power", as no such term exist in the ruleset) or any phase he can "cast" it. This also applies as literally the wargear for spirit stones states "you may cast a second power a turn".

[myles]

After reading the posts by Minsc and SlaveOne, I'm gonna say that farseers are allowed to use mind war/eldritch storm multiple times in a turn. If you look at the Chaos codex (good call Minsc) you'll see that the powers there all say something like this: "This power can be used in the shooting phase instead of shooting," except for doombolt, which says that it may be used in the shooting phase instead of firing another ranged weapon and that it counts as a weapon. But before you go saying that we aren't talking about the chaos codex, just hear me out, because this provides valuable information on how to interpret the eldar codex.

Now we all know already that the BGB says that you are only allowed to fire one weapon per turn. However, it cannot be argued that using a psychic power is firing a weapon, because it simply isn't. So we know that the number of psychic powers one can use in the shooting phase is limited only by the rules of the codex and the particular psychic power in question, not the BGB's rules.

So the question is: what exactly does it mean to do something instead of firing a weapon? Using the chaos codex as an example, I think it is clear that to do something instead of firing a weapon does not mean that you somehow swap that action for the firing of a weapon on a one-to-one basis. The phrases "used in the shooting phase instead of shooting" and "used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" are almost exactly the same, and have the same meaning, it's just that one seems a lot less restrictive than the other.

To put it simply, using these psychic powers in the shooting phase does not "replace" you firing a weapon. It is not firing a weapon at all, it is something entirely different. The only condition given in the powers' rules is that you do it instead of firing a weapon. So if you go to use that power what you would ask yourself is, "Am I firing a weapon or using this power?" If the answer is not that you are firing a weapon then you are fully eligible to use the power. Nowhere in there do you have to ask yourself, "Did I cast another psychic power in this shooting phase?" because the power's rules don't care if you did, it only cares if you fired a weapon, and using a psychic power is not firing a weapon, unless the psychic power specifically states that it is, like doombolt.

Using mind war and eldritch storm in one turn is perfectly 100% legal.

[Lonewolf]

What is so confusing about the rule?

Codex rules override BGB rules.

Eldrad may use 3 powers a turn, out of which two maybe the same.

Does using 2 mindwars a turn equalize in using the same power twice a turn?

Yes it does, so even if the BGB says different, Eldrad my still use 2 mindwars a turn, since the codex overrides any ruling of the BGB.

[Deathklok]

Good call, Myles....eldrad and I thank you!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Even if you can use 2 "shooting" psychic powers in the same turn (I'm in the "no" camp for this), wouldn't they have to both be against the same target as a unit (in this case the character) can only fire at one unit?

Inquisitor Psychologis Ruminahui