News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Psychic Powers  (Read 3081 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Psychic Powers
« on: April 3, 2016, 08:20:19 AM »
Just a general inquiry here from somebody who hasn't played the game since 5th edition.  How do you guys find psychic powers these days?  I like the look of the whole dedicated psychic power phase and generating warp dice, with the expanded perils table too.  It makes the whole thing an event, which is good fun.

However, I'm not so keen on the the random power generation part.  You can't plan strategies around random chance and sometimes I feel like, I paid the points for the damn thing so I should get the powers I want!  I mean, you don't roll randomly on the special wargear options do you?  ;)

What about you guys?  How do you feel about the psychic powers these days?

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #1 on: April 3, 2016, 09:22:53 AM »
I mean, you don't roll randomly on the special wargear options do you?  ;)

If you play Daemons you do!

In all seriousness, though, the psychic phase is very unreliable. The best powers, by far, are Blessings (notably Invisibility), as they are the most likely to go off without being countered.

Basically, you've got three ways to approach the psychic phase:

Not At All
Screw it. Take no psychics. You probably won't miss them.

Minimal
Take one psyker as cheaply as possible (one, maybe two mastery levels). Work under the assumption they won't do much, hope for the best. Best to take them for some alternate purpose (required HQ slot, for instance).

Psychics Everywhere!
The best way to overcome the inherent unpredictability of the psychic phase is to take tons and tons of warp charge. Like, ten dice or more, at least. Psychics in every slot you can cram them in. That way, you have many more options for powers, the dice to make a few happen, and better odds of getting the powers you want. It is still rather unreliable, but the prospect of virtually guaranteeing Invisibility or being able to consistently summon things can be sweet.

I don't think the middle path for psychic powers works especially well (4-6 warp charge) since you don't have the dice to get a lot off consistently, can't really guarantee the powers you want, and have to spend a lot of points for that privilege.

Expect to get no more than 2-3 powers off per phase, maximum, no matter what (it's like the old Magic Phase in WHFB like that). Make sure those powers count or it won't be worth the investment.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #2 on: April 3, 2016, 11:24:06 AM »
If you play Daemons you do!

Woah, that's too random for me.   :o

Anyway, this seems like such a shame.  Options 1 and 2 aren't really viable (well, 1 is.  But that's boring).  And option 3 is a little crazy.

In my case I guess I could use the Pyskana Division, stick to one discipline and hope that I get the best powers and spread them around.  4-5 times out of 6 isn't too bad.

It would be cool if there was a way to mix the seventh edition warp dice mechanism with the 5th edition style of fixed powers.  That's the best of both worlds.

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #3 on: April 3, 2016, 11:50:41 AM »
If you play Daemons you do!

Woah, that's too random for me.   :o

If you don't like random, you shouldn't play daemons. (shrug)

Well, I guess you can play Khorne--that's the *least* random, anyway.

Quote
Anyway, this seems like such a shame.  Options 1 and 2 aren't really viable (well, 1 is.  But that's boring).  And option 3 is a little crazy.

In my case I guess I could use the Pyskana Division, stick to one discipline and hope that I get the best powers and spread them around.  4-5 times out of 6 isn't too bad.

The Psykana is an 8-die phase with the little guys generating more easily, so I'd consider it roughly equivalent to the "Psyker's Everywhere" idea, just a *little* less random (you can't quite guarantee the powers you know, but it's 5 rolls on the same table, so there are good odds). The drawback becomes mostly one of durability--most of their psychic powers are worthless unless they aren't in a transport, and if there's a guy on the table with Invisibility, you can reasonably expect your opponent to nuke them off said table as soon as is feasible.

Because Invisibility is the single most broken power in existence. Damned thing should be illegal. 

Quote
It would be cool if there was a way to mix the seventh edition warp dice mechanism with the 5th edition style of fixed powers.  That's the best of both worlds.

With a re-balancing on the psychic powers themselves, this would be fine. Sadly, there are too many really crappy ones and too many obviously good ones to make this fair at the moment.

Overall, much like the old WHFB magic phase, you can game the probability to the point where it isn't *overly* onerous (unless you play Tzeentch Daemons and have to rely on the psychic phase to do everything). You've got to play it all-or-nothing, though. Don't half-ass it.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

  • Grand Master of the Deathwing | Oh the lolmanity! | 40kOnline's Care Bear of LOL!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11372
  • Country: ca
  • We were murderers first, last, and always!
  • Armies: Dark Angels, Custodes, Knights, Night Lords
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #4 on: April 3, 2016, 12:42:11 PM »
Because Invisibility is the single most broken power in existence. Damned thing should be illegal. 
And then your opponent takes a Culexus assassin and laughs... and laughs... and laughs.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #5 on: April 3, 2016, 12:55:51 PM »
As a hard counter, a Culexus just isn't all that great (even with the Etherium, shooting him to death is fairly easy). But yeah, that's your option.

Personally I prefer either (1) stack so many dice in your own psychic phase that you can counter (very hard) or (2) kill the psyker (sometimes easier, depending.)
« Last Edit: April 3, 2016, 01:11:39 PM by Wyddr »

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11480
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #6 on: April 3, 2016, 01:26:58 PM »
Based on my experience of random psychic powers in sixth, and what I've read about seventh and the battle reports that I've come across, psychic powers are just too random and there are some which are far too effective relative to the others.  If I were still playing, I would continue to use psykers, just because I like them, but I would hesitate to recommend that others use them, owing to the lack of consistency psykers provide.

I much preferred the system of choosing psychic powers and paying points for them.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3055
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #7 on: April 3, 2016, 01:42:13 PM »
I know all about invisibility.  It's just insane.  And the worst thing is, didn't the 6th edition version have the rule written far far better?  If so, a definite step back.

I agree with irisado too, on how to go about it.  I'd assign a points cost to the powers (with the primarus being free), tweak their function a bit to balance them out, and let the player buy their chosen powers.  At least then you could build strategies around pyshic powers again.

Offline khaine

  • This happens when I am bored.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
  • Country: england
  • Truly Dread
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #8 on: April 3, 2016, 02:27:49 PM »
If you play Daemons you do!

Woah, that's too random for me.   :o

If you don't like random, you shouldn't play daemons. (shrug)

Ah the joys of randomly generating a Psychic power at the start of the Psychic phase so you have no idea of the possition you need to best get it to work... Yay Scribes...  ::)

Psychics Everywhere!
The best way to overcome the inherent unpredictability of the psychic phase is to take tons and tons of warp charge. Like, ten dice or more, at least.

The issue with this approach is that more Psykers suffer from diminishing returns. A lone level 1 will on average have 4/5 dice to cast with, 3 level 1 Psykers will have 6/7 dice to split between them. Horror heavy Daemon armies are a prime example of how if you have too many Psykers you don't have enugh dice too support them all and quickly find some units do nothing more than feed others powern (Not to say that it can't work as an effective tactic, just that nobody likes a unit that basically does nothing for a game).

While I'm not a big fan of letting players pick any power they want I could see an option for Psykers to be attuned to certain disciplines and be able to shift up or down up +1/-1 on their rolls on their attuned table. So for example a Grey Knight Librarian could roll on Sanctic, Divination, Pyromancy… but would get a modifier on any Sanctic rolls they made.

Psychic powers through 40k history have always fluctuated between annoyingly random and painfully dull, crazy thing is that GW has at least twice noted in new editions that people don't like random, yet every edition they seem to flip a coin to decide if random elements are in or out.  ???

Still better random than dull as hell.

  There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed

You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


"Childhood is when you idolize Batman. Adulthood is when you realize that the Joker makes more sense."

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #9 on: April 3, 2016, 02:42:09 PM »
Quote
The issue with this approach is that more Psykers suffer from diminishing returns. A lone level 1 will on average have 4/5 dice to cast with, 3 level 1 Psykers will have 6/7 dice to split between them. Horror heavy Daemon armies are a prime example of how if you have too many Psykers you don't have enugh dice too support them all and quickly find some units do nothing more than feed others powern (Not to say that it can't work as an effective tactic, just that nobody likes a unit that basically does nothing for a game).

Oh, yes--it is certainly annoying and, yes, some quantity of your units will do nothing for most of the game (if all they can do is use psychic powers, that is--which is why Horrors win my vote for "worst troops ever"). However, I would argue it is the most reliable way to get something consistently useful out of the psychic phase.

If I can guarantee that I can get off Invisibility and Summon a unit each and every phase (or, for Tzeentch, shoot a Prismatic Gaze at something and Summon a Chariot), that is a pretty devastating advantage, even if most of the psychics on the board do nothing for most of the game.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

  • The Badger on the Road | Staff Infection Officer | Debased Vassal Slayer | Title Barfly | XOXOXO Gossip Girl | Bent Over
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19053
  • Country: nz
  • From the Fourth Necromantic House
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #10 on: April 3, 2016, 05:39:23 PM »
Or, you could play Tau and have no idea what so ever what every one is on about. Except for Farsight's people, who can add a little necklace to help out matters.
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
Tact is for people who are too slow witted to be sarcastic.
Drink
Knights Tippler
Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

Offline Spectral Arbor

  • Major
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
  • Country: ca
  • Thanks for the help.
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #11 on: April 3, 2016, 06:18:37 PM »
With a better balance of powers, and a greater focus on what a given discipline does [Pyromancy has two powers that give you a saving throw!] I think you could have 4 or so powers per discipline, and your psyker knows all of the powers from one discipline.

I'd also say that the "basic" roll to harness should be 3+, with psykers generating their level in power dice +1. Oh, I should just Forge this, I suppose.

Offline Cavalier

  • One Archon to Rules Test Them All | High Corsair Prince of Painting | Warlock
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2585
  • Country: us
  • Corsair Prince
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Angels, World Eaters
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #12 on: April 5, 2016, 08:49:45 AM »
The Primaris powers are usually pretty awesome. Telepathy, Divination and unique army psychic powers are often very reliable. Everything else is definitely random. But for you Cap, the Divination table with Prescience as the Primaris is phenomenal for Guard. My brother doesn't even bother with any thing else.
Check out my army! Eldar Corsair Army

I'm also on the Splintermind Podcast! http://www.facebook.com/splintermindpodcast/

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #13 on: April 5, 2016, 09:07:07 AM »
If I were to rank the disciplines:

1) Telepathy (Invisibility, Shrouding, and Psychic Shriek are all great; Hallucination is terrible, others mediocre and situational)

2) Divination (Prescience is probably the most useful Primaris and many of the other powers are handy. Nothing overwhelming, but always pretty useful except Scrier's Gaze)

3) Malefic Daemonology (The various summoning powers are very handy, Cursed Earth is fabulous if you play Daemons)

4) Biomancy (Smite is pretty good, Endurance and the toughness-knock are great, Iron Arm is awesome)

5) Sanctic Daemonology (good powers, but only Grey Knights can use it without their heads exploding, I think. Never see this one taken)

6) Psychokinesis (or whatever it's called. So-so powers, nothing that amazing. Not actively bad, mind you, but still)

7) Pyromancy (unless you face hordes, it kinda sucks. Lots of fairly lame witchfire powers)

As for the specialty disciplines, the Runes of Battle is freaking amazing, Runes of Fate is varied and generally useful (Guide is a great Primaris), the CSM lores all suck to varying degrees (Tzeentch especially, but Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't any prizes. They're so-so, I guess). The new Lore of Change is very good right now (Prismatic Gaze? Boon if Flame? Yes please!), the Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemon lores are okay. Don't know enough about the Tyranids or Orks to say much.

Offline Fenris

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Country: se
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Eldar, Aeldari
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 05:35:36 PM »
I think the psychic powers are generally crap due to mostly their randomness, but also their decreased chance for successful casting, however since you get a free D6 of warp charges each turn I prefer taking the minimal approach, but a ML3 is still ok, as that usually means 2 dice foreach power to cast.

The powers need to be more balanced, if this is done by paying points for specific ones or changing the WC cost for them does not really matter.
I really don't like the double randomness in you don't know what power you will get and in addition you don't know if it's going to be a powerful one or a weaker.

I can see the power in taking lot's of psykers as well, as that allows you to not only have a higher chance of getting the powers you want, it also increases the chances to get those you want most to be successful, and you can propably get them where you want them at least if several of the psykers are IC's.

The middle road of 4-8 ML is probably the worst IMHO.

Ego in propria persona, non compos mentis.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

  • The Cause of Diabetes -Captain- Necrontyr Immortal - KoN Veteran - Master of All Diplomacy | Wi-Fi Nomad |
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8901
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Harlequins, Spiderfang, Bonereapers, Space Wolves
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 12:44:20 PM »
I take one psyker in my Chaos Marines, and three in my Harlequins. I think they are useful in both regards. Usually, I go for the primaris power and then anything else is a bonus. The harlequin powers are all pretty good, and I like the Slaanesh powers, except for ecstatic seizures.

I do enjoy this psychic phase more then the leadership test casting. I like that you have to make choices in resource management when it comes to casting powers.

Normally,  don't cast a power per warp-charge I have, but I base my strategy on the warp charge roll off at the beginning of the phase. I usally have powers I 'need' to get off, so I focus on those (3-4 dice to almost guarantee a WC1 power) and if I have extra dice, I'll go for other powers.

I think the really good powers should be hard to cast and cost a lot resources. A lot of dice need to be thrown to guarantee Invisibility, and even more for any sort of summoning. I typically throw 3 dice per warp charge I need. That gives me around a 80% chance of getting the powers off I want. With Chaos and Spell Familiars, it's a lot easier lol.
Harlequin Army Blog

That's not blatant, this is blatant: I'm super happy that I'm playing Austria, the greatest nation in all of Diplomacy!

Azore of Austria

Offline Lazarisreborn

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Psychic Powers
« Reply #16 on: May 2, 2016, 12:53:09 PM »
I would argue against Horrors being the worst unit.  They are batteries that can go to ground on objectives for a 3+ or 4+ re-rolling 1s cover save.  Also, the new Daemonic Incursion formation gives them the possibility of strength 7 flickering fire now.

Minimalist psychic power armies are going to have trouble shutting down the new Space Marine powers.  Flying assault transport terrain, re-roll armor saves, and ignore cover/LOS powers for Space Marines.  Imagine if they could just pick and pay for the powers they want now. I am just glad I play Daemons and get enough psychic dice to deny a lot of their powers. 
"If God did not exist, man would have to invent him"

 


Powered by EzPortal