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Offline Illandir

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The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« on: February 1, 2015, 11:02:49 AM »
Hey everyone! Hope everyone had a good break over the holidays. Now that the forum is back and running, let's get posting!

I wanted to see peoples thought's on the new Harlequin Troupe and Solitaire units, as well as the other upcoming Harlequin units (like the Starweaver dedicated transport. I wonder what that is...)

What do people think?
Are they good or bad?
What is your favorite weapon in the harlequin arsenal?

I am personally very excited for new Harlequins! Though, that excitement mostly comes from the fact that they released PLASTIC models for them (goodbye finecast! Won't miss you!). I was doing some dice rolling, I am on the fence on if they are better or not. At the moment, they have no shadowseer, so running across the field is probably not the best option. Their damage in combat is different to me, I think I do prefer the new harlequin's kiss over just plain rending, but that is just my preference.

The Harlequin's Caress is easily my new favorite weapon! I plan to give it to my Troupe Masters, and on the whole unit if I can afford it! Nothing is more entertaining than rolling enough glances with it to take out an Imperial Knight.

I think the best surprise for the new Harlequins was the addition that their Flip Belts have new rules, helping with assault and "look out sir" rolls. Which brings me to my question of the day: When it says that models are not slowed by difficult terrain, does that mean it allows them to hop over walls (as if they were moving like jetpack infantry), or would they still need to move around the wall? Or would that be something to figure out with the opponent on how terrain works?

Offline Wyddr

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 1, 2015, 11:59:58 AM »
I think the best surprise for the new Harlequins was the addition that their Flip Belts have new rules, helping with assault and "look out sir" rolls. Which brings me to my question of the day: When it says that models are not slowed by difficult terrain, does that mean it allows them to hop over walls (as if they were moving like jetpack infantry), or would they still need to move around the wall? Or would that be something to figure out with the opponent on how terrain works?

I think this would largely depend on how you would treat the wall *without* a flip belt. Can your troops usually move through a wall with a difficult terrain roll? I know this happens in ruins often and also in Cities of Death games, so it might be the case. In that instance, the harlies just ghost through the wall.

IF, however, you would require normal units to climb over or go around the wall (using vertical movement or whatever), the harlies don't get an exception. The Flip Belt, so far as I've heard, doesn't give them jump pack/jetpack capability.

Offline Fenris

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 1, 2015, 01:22:31 PM »
Yeah, I'm happy this forum is back I have really missed it.

I like the new harlequins, plastic is fantastic there is nothing that really competes with plastic.

I also think the rules have improved to make them at least playable again. However this much depends on what other options there are in the "enigmas of the black library".

I am also very curious of how the shadowseer will work, is there something to prevent the harlequins being shot, maybe something that prevents overwatch, that will make the tau players mad?

The starweaver is also very intresting, is it a large transport that can fit a full unit like the serpent and is it open-topped?

About the weapon choices I like them a lot, they allow you to make the unit good in CC in 4 different ways.
1. Cheap with no upgrades.
2. good against light infantry with the embrace
3. good against heavy infantry with kiss
4. good against anything expensive with the caress. (including vehicles)
I also like the new statline for the troupe master, giving him a caress is probably what most people will do.

The point reduction was well deserved since they have cost the same since 4th ed. However the upgrades got even more expensive. I'd go for the cheap option unless there is someway to improve durability with a shadowseer or a transport.

One thing that got me confused is: -Why the plasma grenades?
With the new flip-belt rules and with furious charge, there is really not much use for them, is it to prevent them from running away automatically from a walkers and MC to force them to take an initiative test which I always tend to fail when I most need it. Harlequins should really not have this trouble IMHO.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 1, 2015, 02:52:41 PM »
Don't forget that you can actually *throw* plasma grenades these days. They're pretty effective against light/medium infantry, so I wouldn't discount them as useless.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 1, 2015, 03:30:21 PM »
I love the look of them.  The new weapon rules all seem useful within their own niche and feel unique.  It's nice having special snowflakes. :) 

The points adjustment feels about right to me.  Anything less would feel undercosted considering the high WS and attacks of harlies, but they're much more reasonable now. If you don't mind passing up on special weapons, on a few clowns, the points you save will add up quickly compared to the old clowns.  Even with upgrades, it looks like they still come out a bit cheaper than before. 

Even without knowing what the specifics of the transport, just having one fixes one of the biggest problems harlies have had for a while now: the need for a delivery system. I suspect it will probably be very similar to a raider or venom, but part of me is hoping to get some cool features on the clown car.  Maybe even some unique vehicle upgrade options. If its transport capacity is comparable to a venom, we won't be able to fit full squads into it, but MSU harlies don't seem like a bad way to go anyway.

I agree that what the enigmas include will be vital to how effective harlies end up being overall.  Specifically, I think the Mantle of the Laughing God, or something like it, will be almost necessary to making the solitaire work as intended.  Currently, the Solitaire seems to lack both a delivery system and the means of surviving the trip into combat.  I know he's tougher than the average trouper, but he still stands to fall to the first volley of anti-infantry fire pointed his direction. He feels a lot like an imperial assassin, and I'm sure that's intentional.  I'm just not sure how to get him where you need him without putting him at too great a risk of being shot down first turn.  Maybe outflank him behind some BLOS terrain and then go for a turn 3/4 assault on something exposed?


Offline Skyleap

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 2, 2015, 10:44:38 PM »
I'm positively ecstatic about this release. I got into 40K because of Harlequins. I tried to make my own with GS. When my friends saw the first model I made, they pitched in and bought a Harlequin army for me from eBay as a birthday gift. Coming full circle with them has been a long time in the making.   :D

I think we received quite a bit of advance information with this release:
  • Shadowseer was removed as an upgrade choice. Definite HQ option there.
  • Death Jester was removed as an upgrade choice. Likely new Heavy unit there.
  • Starweaver a dedicated transport option for Troupes. Will likely have a transport capacity of 12, maybe 14 on account the Troupe unit max size bumped up by two.

Add to that the ability to DS a Solitaire into play and I see lots of potential with making Harlequins a standalone army.


Offline Dread

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 3, 2015, 02:53:02 PM »
I hope it gets to be a stand alone army. I hope we get the harli wraithlord back too. I would actually like to do a bit of converting on a knight and paint it harli, hmm? I hope the bikes get the 4" coherency like they used to have. A shadowseer with more powers, maybe?
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #7 on: February 4, 2015, 12:07:45 AM »
I'd love to see mimes return, but they look doubtful based on rumors. 

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #8 on: February 4, 2015, 02:03:31 AM »
I'm also really excited about this.  Harlequins are one of the best things about 40k in terms of both the background lore and the miniatures.  It's also a continuation of a trend by GW, started funny enough by the return of the Jokaero and continued with the release of Imperial Knights, to bring back all the rogue trader era golden goodies.  This is a good thing and I think it should be continued.

Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #9 on: February 7, 2015, 08:39:19 AM »
Ive finished assembling my first troupe. Theyre such beautiful models although some parts are very delicate. I'm so happy they aren't finecast or other soft resins Ive had a few snaps as it is. I've magnetised all the right/cc arms and just glued the pistols the special pistols do look nice however but not ideal for this unit. They embrace is probably my least favourite CC upgrade however a few of those in a unit will be great for killing hordes.

I dont think the troupe master should bother with the power sword as it's so expensive and generally probably only net you as many kills as a Kiss would.

Im very excited for this release. I'm looking to build around 1500 - 2000pts and not let this army become massive like my Biel Tan. I like the blue and purple colour scheme so far so probably go with that. My plan is to buy one of everything even if it is sub-par and just have them as my fun army. I'm going in without any self imposed limitations unlike my CWE and my former wych cult.

So much of the army's effectiveness will hinge on their transport and the unknown options in the codex. Whilst I am jumping straight in to the deep end I am having a look around first.

Offline Dread

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #10 on: February 7, 2015, 09:59:48 PM »
Cool, put pics up asap. Now, is there gonna be a dex? or just, well I guess there needs to be to see the solitaires wargear options. To many unanswered questions right now. I would love to add to my harlis but not as just allies, the whole army. Great harli? I mean this is one of the weirdest releases GW has done.
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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #11 on: February 8, 2015, 06:20:11 PM »
There are leaked photos of the kits on the ether, unfortunately they cannot be posted here due to copyright.  GW is severe about its claims, even claiming that things it posts in public are not allowed to be posted elsewhere.

When this site had hundreds of users making thousands of posts, topics like this were forbidden until the source material was published.  Times have changed, so this topic is welcomed.

As for the kits, I like what I see.  I think the poses on the Troupe aren't as good as the previous models but that is easily rectified when in plastic.  Are you forgetting the Solitaire?  The Solitaire is back!  I especially like the holosuit effect sculpted into the ends of his coat.  He may be the killy HQ lacking from the Eldar HQ (besides the Avatar, but he's a big target besides).  So far, his cost seems okay but we don't yet know exactly what equipment and upgrades are available to her, the ability to reach across practically any part of the battlefield later in the game is certainly useful.
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Offline Dread

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #12 on: February 9, 2015, 12:27:29 AM »
The troupes are released. That's the pics I was talking about. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #13 on: February 9, 2015, 06:22:05 AM »
I had a few practice squad v squad matches with my harlies against close to equal points of my girlfriends Sentinels of Terra Imperial Fists. Normally I  mathhammer this stuff out but wanted to show my gf what the harlies were capable of.

Match 1: 7 harlies, 2 embrace, 3 kisses vs 10 tac marines, heavy bolter, flamer. Lost half the squad going in. They still made it and I think won the combat but I only had a couple of models left and was probably outnumbered 2-1.

Match 2: 9 harlies, 2 embrace, 3 kiss vs 10 Assault marines, vet serg w/ PW, flamer. This match went better for the harlies as the over watch wasn't as strong and I had more bodies. The harlies won this one.

Match 3: 10 harlies, 2 embrace, 3 kiss vs 5 assault termies w/ 3 hammer/shield. Termies charged. I did it this way to see worst case scenario. Without the extra attacks and other charge bonuses the harlies get Id' say this is probably a losing combat. It's a good thing they can leave combat.

My dice rolls were pretty ordinary these games. After several rounds of the different combats I only inflicted 3-4 wounds from the Caress. I think the Caress will only be effective when taken en mass rather than just the two that come in the box. Also my attacks w/ the kisses were pretty bad too often only hitting 1/3 times each combat however I think 4-6 kisses in each unit is enough to sway combats in to your favour. Being hit back hurt. Wyches are so much tougher compared to harlies in that regard.
I think the kisses are the better stand alone option. If the shadowseer has access to say Prescience then maybe caresses will shine more.

I also despite not having the solitaire model yet, have the rules for him in the White Dwarf so decided to see how how'd go.

Match 4: Solitaire vs SM Captain, Artificer, Relic blade

The solitaire was winning this combat but not by much. I managed to inflict 2 unsaved wounds on the turn I used Blitz. In subsequent turns it wasn't that impressive.

I did want to try the solitaire out vs the tac squad as I think that's where s/he'll shine against rank and file troops. However I got the impression the GF was over it so we stopped there.

I knew this army would play very much like my wych cult did. I do hope the harlies get a unit that can charge first to absorb the over watch. I think their bikes will be pretty handy for this.

Still until their codex and all models are released all this is kind of pointless - but fun.

@ Dread, I dont anticipate I'll be painting my harlies any time soon. Im trying to get as much of the Imperial Fists painted before going back to uni at the end of the month. Also working on my phantom titans base with a friend so I can get back to work on him. So painting the harlies is on the back burner :p

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 06:14:48 AM »
looks like the starweaver has transport capacity of 6 models has 2 heavy weapons 2 shuriken catapults I believe and apparently an option to make a voidreaver with a prism-cannon weapon 24" range on all 3 type of shots..dispersed normal and focused. as for the model it kinda looks like a vyper with out the turret on the back and as far as army goes looks like 1 starweaver to a box of harlies. all this info was from spikey bits someone showed a pic of the WD55

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2015, 11:40:41 AM »
Hmm. On that note, I'm now confused about where the rules are officially going to be.  Are all the rules in a whitedwarf, or are they releasing a book of some sort for the harlies?

Offline Looshkin

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2015, 02:18:15 PM »
The codex will be on preorder this Friday, priced at £30
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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2015, 03:07:33 PM »
It is very good news that Harlequins are getting their own book.  I've long held the view that they should be treated as a separate army, as they have not integrated well when added to the Eldar codex, owing to being either far too powerful, or pretty weak, depending on the codex and edition rules.  Whether the new codex can do them justice remains open to debate, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »
It is very good news that Harlequins are getting their own book.  I've long held the view that they should be treated as a separate army, as they have not integrated well when added to the Eldar codex, owing to being either far too powerful, or pretty weak, depending on the codex and edition rules.  Whether the new codex can do them justice remains open to debate, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

I have to agree.  They deserve their own codex because they are an independant faction working with both dark and craftworld eldar without being part of either.  These sort of things are what the allies matrix was made for.  Imperials get all the love anyway so it's about time the xenos got some too.

Offline OD from TV

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2015, 04:43:58 PM »
Imperials get all the love anyway so it's about time the xenos got some too.

GW giving love and attention to non human factions?  Did I step into a parallel dimension, cause if so I don't want to go back.

Joking aside, like so many others I am thrilled beyond belief that the Harleys are getting a long overdue book, does anyone else remember the stuff from the old CJ issue?  That stuff was gold, and I don't care about any and all the hate on Gav Thorpe, that should have been a 'real' codex there and then.

All said and done I'm afraid that this new edition will have fluff rewrites (which as a flufftastic fan always irks me), as well as a lack of certain elements such as Mimes and Wraithlords, but at the end of the day I find myself not caring about what won't be there, the fact that this is happening at all is amazing.

Not to be too speculative, but whose to say that this Harlequinn book will be the final word?  Look at Tyranids, their original codex drop was Jan of last year, but only a few months ago had new models and new rules in the Shield of Baal expansion.  I'm not saying that the same will happen for the Harleys, but I can hope (and dream) that they'll get even more than what's currently on the table for their release next week.

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