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Author Topic: Stubborn, the new fearless?  (Read 9962 times)

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #40 on: April 2, 2009, 02:36:10 PM »
Why? If you like better morale play 40k. Seriously.

Do you mean Fantasy Battle?
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Offline Spirit of Kurnous

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #41 on: April 2, 2009, 03:50:45 PM »
@ Phantomine.

Why? If you like better morale play 40k. Seriously.

Their is a reason those rules work for necromunda. BECAUSE IT IS SMALL SCALE. Try to play a gang of over 50 mdoels. See how long that game lasts. You will see that this is a game for different systems. In 40k it is meant to be quick and brutal. I play 40k for a quick game and not a marathon length game. If your changes were implemented the game would last far too long.

about 2 hours ;)  really that was 2nd ed and it worked fine.  although if you used rogue trader (which is same as 5th basically) close combat rules then it could go quicker.
in fact if you used rogue trader movement, firing, combat it would all go quicker as people die more due to save mods, combat is like 5th and you only get one move in a turn so lose a move.  making use of 5th vehicle rules would keep it fast although these really dont represent vehicles very well and 2nd ed did that better (although alot longer).

for detail RT and 2e beat 3-5th hands down and are better games for it.  3-5th is good if you want uncomplicated and/or kids to play.
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Offline Phantomime

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #42 on: April 3, 2009, 06:09:06 AM »
@ Phantomine.

Why? If you like better morale play 40k. Seriously.

Their is a reason those rules work for necromunda. BECAUSE IT IS SMALL SCALE. Try to play a gang of over 50 models. See how long that game lasts. You will see that this is a game for different systems. In 40k it is meant to be quick and brutal. I play 40k for a quick game and not a marathon length game. If your changes were implemented the game would last far too long.

more like, "if you want to play a real game with tactics, moral and amphetamine parrot, play fantasy" except i like 40k's fluff better and wonder why they needed to dumb IT down... bigger player base? whatever the reason, i would perfer a system that didnt focus on faster and faster games, but rather on more indepth ones with... i dunno, feeling...

yes necromunda is a smaller scale, and so you can add more stuff to make the game more interesting and challenging as opposed to, "i see you, roll a dice and get wiped out." speed doenst make better games. simple, consice, unambiguous rules that still allow for depth and strategy make for great games.

simply put, a necromunda or kill team style game would, imho, make a better 'quick' game alternative than dumbing down 40k. they just need better senarios and options for these systems.

Also, if you have ever played battletech (which uses a modifier system and a crazy 'realative hit-location' chart for damage) you will know that it all comes down to knowing how the game plays (it has about the same play time as a good game of 40k.)

as long as rules are easy to understand, picking it up and developing straegies comes easily, and game time decreases cause you arent constantly having to look up this or that rule or disputing LoS (which sadly happens a lot due to the fact that, now, if you can draw LoS to That model, the ENTIRE SQUAD is screwed.)

anyways, as it stands now, 'fast and bloody' does make for a quick game that comes down to terrain placement (and type of terrain), and luck. roll crap on the wrong turn, it can be unrecoverable, which is fine if you like playing games where it can be over by turn two though very little fault on your part. new game.
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Offline edible

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #43 on: April 3, 2009, 11:04:58 PM »
they tend to clear them themselves, but not run screaming at them.  and in a 40k sense I would say they are fearless infiltrators.
just because you are fearless doesnt make you stupid, you can understand the situation but follow it through, just not in a suicidal way

They should at least be pinable, the issue here is that fearless is an all or nothing thing, they would likely be fearless in some situations but would have the sense to withdraw in unfavorable circumstances (which 40k penalizes badly, with off table = dead, no commander with any sense will try and retreat their forces off the table in bad situations, which should be to an extent promoted)

As far as fearless goes, I think pinning from barrage should be separate as part of it is the disorientation of shells falling everywhere smoke concussive waves, noise etc that no amount of courage will save you from confusion.

simple, consice, unambiguous rules that still allow for depth and strategy make for great games.

Agreed totally.

Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #44 on: April 4, 2009, 11:15:48 AM »
Why? If you like better morale play 40k. Seriously.

Do you mean Fantasy Battle?


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Yeah, whoops.

Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2009, 09:57:11 PM »
Okay, just played a test game vs. the Imperial guard codex...

Ended up with a bloody 50 man conscript unit tarpitting the crap out of my DC with a commisar who stayed out of LOS behind a terrain piece giving them stubborn.

That was just stupid...

IMO, Stubborn = better than the old fearless...
Whoa there.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2009, 10:19:07 PM »
Well, your opponent cheated, intentionally or not.  A Commissar has to join a unit for them to become Stubborn, though the Lord can bestow his Leadership onto a nearby unit.  So, in other words, the only way for those Conscripts to become stubborn is for the Lord to join them, and the Lord is an Indy Character.  Of course, there is Special Characters.
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Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2009, 09:15:20 PM »
Yes, that new special commisar (commisar Chenkov, I believe) hided out with another unit of 20 conscripts behind a wall...

Twas annoying, but I still managed to pull a draw...
Whoa there.

Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2009, 09:27:33 PM »
Yes, that new special commisar (commisar Chenkov, I believe) hided out with another unit of 20 conscripts behind a wall...

Twas annoying, but I still managed to pull a draw...

AH, Yes, Chenkov does transfer stubborn onto units in a 12" radius. But to clarify, he's not a Commissar, he's an officer. Though you friend may have just proxied him withe a Commissar.

Offline Cortez

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2009, 09:55:18 PM »
In relation to pinning, my scouts never do squat with that. however, my ork friend (who hates to think like an ork . . . is this heresy?) uses 10 strong mobs, and as long as you pour enough dakka into something, it can fall back (Or in his case, lose a quarter of his army from a dread, scouts and a tac squad in 2 turns.)

Leadership is still a key part, or you lot are facing lots of fearless stuff.
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Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2009, 10:18:08 PM »
Yes, that new special commisar (commisar Chenkov, I believe) hided out with another unit of 20 conscripts behind a wall...

Twas annoying, but I still managed to pull a draw...

AH, Yes, Chenkov does transfer stubborn onto units in a 12" radius. But to clarify, he's not a Commissar, he's an officer. Though you friend may have just proxied him withe a Commissar.
Could be, I dunno, I just gave a quick glance over his list and saw a weird special character and a bunch of conscripts.
Whoa there.

Offline objectionator

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2009, 03:02:35 PM »
Wouldn't weedy stubborn units like conscripts with poor leadership still fail their morale checks (eventually) when they get pwned by death company in hand-to-hand combat? There's only a 58% chance to pass LD7 (and LD6 and LD5 only have 42 and 28% chances of success, respectively).

Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2009, 03:26:39 PM »
Wouldn't weedy stubborn units like conscripts with poor leadership still fail their morale checks (eventually) when they get pwned by death company in hand-to-hand combat? There's only a 58% chance to pass LD7 (and LD6 and LD5 only have 42 and 28% chances of success, respectively).

Ah yes, Concsripts have Leadership 5. But the problem is that a Commissar provides Leadership 10 over them. And then you get the re-roll. In the end you're more likely to just kill them all then sap their morale.

Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2009, 06:00:59 PM »
Wouldn't weedy stubborn units like conscripts with poor leadership still fail their morale checks (eventually) when they get pwned by death company in hand-to-hand combat? There's only a 58% chance to pass LD7 (and LD6 and LD5 only have 42 and 28% chances of success, respectively).

Ah yes, Concsripts have Leadership 5. But the problem is that a Commissar provides Leadership 10 over them. And then you get the re-roll. In the end you're more likely to just kill them all then sap their morale.
Regular Comissars are only LD8 now, not LD10. The Lord could get them to 10, and Chenkov give them Stubborn, all without putting a vulnerable IC into combat, but such a setup is expensive, does no damage and is a one-trick pony to boot. Regular Comissars can't be put into Conscript squads, IIRC, so the only way to actually do this is to spend over 300 points on it, which is far from broken.

Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2009, 06:50:59 PM »
Regular Commissars are Leadership 9, but your point stands.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2009, 03:03:16 PM »
You could bring Yarrick.  He gives his LD to units within 6 and makes them Stubborn.  Much cheaper and Yarrick is pretty decent in hand to hand, too.
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Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2009, 07:05:32 PM »
He just used a lord commisar + chenkov (especially that "send in the dogs" ability he now has...).

As for yarrik, that sounds good, I'll recmomend it to mu opponent.
Whoa there.

 


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