Topic: Eldar in 6th Edition

[Lazarus]

Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar.

No, they are faster than non fleet models.

I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf...

Are you serious? Autoglancing AV10 compared to now needing 7 on 2d6? I'd say that is a massive nerf if you compare the statistic of aoutomatic to roughly 50%. Overall, I'm ok with it but it doesn't change what it is.

[magenb]

I see Eldar CC being used as counter attacks rather than the unit used offensively. In this roll Banshee's are still useful against assault Marines.

I also see more people taking more full units as the game is going to become a war of attrition.

Lachdonin - The problem with Armourbane is its randomness, especially against dreadnoughts when its taken against front armour now.

[Lachdonin]

Are you serious? Autoglancing AV10 compared to now needing 7 on 2d6? I'd say that is a massive nerf if you compare the statistic of aoutomatic to roughly 50%. Overall, I'm ok with it but it doesn't change what it is.

This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness. Had they been religated to S5 PAP3 weapons, that would be a massive nerf. As it is, it's a change, but does nothing to diminish their potential. It just makes that potential less reliable.

[nesbitt_bub1]

Looking at the FAQ for Star Engines again, I think they do stack with Flat Out.  Star Engines need the vehicle to be capable of moving & not to have shot - or (dis)embark pax - that turn in order to use them.  Flat out happens instead of shooting & Star Engines require you not to have shot, which you won't have done if you go Flat Out.  The Star Engines aren't forfeiting shooting as such, they're something you can use if you haven't shot.

You can of course believe what you want.

However the fact still remain that in using 1 you can not shoot, and therefore can not give up your ability to shoot to use the other. Regardless of how you try and stack it 1 always overrides the other until you have a permissive FAQ stating you may use star engines in the turn when you move flat out.

Currently the FAQ stated nothing of the sort,

It states a vehicle that can move can use star engines.

if you look at the FAQ, you will see that a vehicle that can move can also shoot, albeit at a lower BS.

Therefore you still give up the ability to shoot in a turn where you are "crew shaken"

[groedius]

I think Phoenix Lords got a hell of alot more powerful the 2 + save and eternal warrior being much more useful with them still getting save against power weapons and the lark. I think Maugan Ra got a massieve boost from this and his weapon kicks ass. Im pretty sure the executioner is an unusual power weapon as stated in the rule book not an power axe.

I think theres been a move away from vehicles and towards flyers. As flyers seem very strong now and I do not believe it will be long before they are more flyers available due to it being the "Summer" of Flyers and we still have 2 months of summer left.

I think big guardian squads footslogging could come back into play as with overwatch and reduction of cover saves they seem more useful.

Also seems that Dark Reapers might work there way back into Heavy support as they got a boost from cover being not as good and the vehicles especially falcons are alot weaker.

The strongest tank we have availale by far now is the Wave serpent due to the energy shields and the hull poins rules. I would not be suprised if in our next codex that Holo-Fields was changed to work like these do.

I think we might be seeing alot more choices from the fast attack section as Singing spears got some nice buffs and haywire grenades on the swooping hawks looks fantastic. Also If im right it is now possible to shoot with grenades making them useful the turn they land, and deepstriking was made safer.

It seems like a Saim-Hann army list could be very competitive this edition due to the positives from warlocks / Jetbikes / Jetseer council / Shinging spears.

I also feel that Hull points has kinda messed up War walkers sure you can get a fortuned save but as soon as you start to fail you only need 2 glance  / pens to go through and its gone. With theyre low AV it just seems like they will die alot easier.

[Saim-Hann Corsair]

I guess I just play differently as I still don't see the issues of the Banshee's even with the issues of transports being mentioned. For example, your transport lands, and you get out with the transport between you and the enemy. Then in the next turn, the transport flies away and you move forward, then assault. Isn't this how we had to do it back in 3rd or 4th edition?

(Granted that is an extremely simplified example, but you get the point)

[Lazarus]

This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness.

When you cut the effectiveness of something by half, that is at least substantial. That is the word you used.....how much of a drop is required to fit that wording?

I think Phoenix Lords got a hell of alot more powerful

Agreed. Maugna Ra is espcially nice as his shooting weapon interacts well with the new rule set.

[Lachdonin]

This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness.

When you cut the effectiveness of something by half, that is at least substantial. That is the word you used.....how much of a drop is required to fit that wording?

And i acquiesced to the fact that it could be substantial. For me, at least, it won't be, because i think in the entirety of 5th edition is assaulted a Vehicle with Witchblades a grand total of 5 times. It's a trivial change which isn't going to impact my gaming. People who rely on Witchblades more often, however, are going to see a bigger impact, though i still suspect that its not going to be nearly as problematic as some are making it out to be.

[nesbitt_bub1]

I actually had a unit brainwave earlier.

Seer council on bikes.

Farseer using the divination guide, and fortune.

Emb warlock
Enh warlock
8x Des warlock.

Firstly durability is not altered between 5th and 6th. Apart from instant death, But these are 1 wound models.

Secondly the unit is a lot faster.

and finally you should never need to assault.

8x destructor, with the new wound allocation system pretty much means any casualties will be on destructor's and not Enh/Emb. Added to that this is a whole new world of pain in the shooting department.

Someone correct me, does a re-roll to hit class as a re-roll to wound with templates, because of twin linking..... I'm not sure on that one.

And finally 11 wychblades even with the nerf work out damn nasty against vehicles with AV10 armour.

Oh and you can take 2 of these hoser units in 1750 points. And still have 300 points left for troops. lol

You also get a save against dangerous terrain.. with a re-roll
And the assault move to leap back behind cover to slow a unit that would assault next turn. Or to leap over to a tank and force it to tank shock next turn so it has to forfeit shooting and can't disembark a shooty unit in your face.

[syth773]

still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want.  For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?

[Fizzics]

still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want.  For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?

I am confused about this as well.

[Partninja]

still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want.  For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?

I am confused about this as well.

According to the Eldar FAQ you buy whatever powers you want, and swap whichever ones you want. So it is NOT all or nothing. Any time I run Eldrad I will be dropping E-storm to take my chances on one of the new powers. I can possibly see people paying for one extra power than usual on their Farseer and using one (a cheap one) to roll for a discipline power.

I got one game in tonight with a pretty standard 5th edition mech-dar list for me (2x prisms, banshees+farseer in serpent, DAs and Stormies both in serpents, DAVU falcon) and here are my initial findings:

1) Assaulting from Serpents is an even bigger hassle than before
2) Serpents are still pretty strong and still good for getting something into the enemy back lines quickly
3) Overwatch rules (at least against non-MC bugs and Orks)! I will likely now be making a list based on "overwatch bait"
4) Prisms got some versatility back with the new blast rules against armor

No ones lists tonight were really tweaked at all for 6th edition. We just wanted to relearn the basics with all the new wound allocation and CC rules. I have a few ideas floating around focusing on massed shooty foot units to abuse overwatch.

[Reepy]

You have to switch all of the powers. It IS all or nothing.

[NightMoor]

Powers are *All or nothing*, otherwise it wouldn't say that Eldrad generates four new powers.

[Lazarus]

I take 4 divination with a Seer. The default spell you can fall back to is excellent which gives you have decent odds of getting the one spell you really wanted. So, it is about 66% to get what you went after aqnd 100% guaranteed that you do not end up with the only dud for your Farseer.

[Aoitora]

Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs

I'd like to address this little issue... How is Smash a 'Pro' for Wraithlords? Half of the ability is wasted right from the onset because of the Wraithlords S characteristic anyway, so you are sacrificing attacks for rerolls. Using Smash, even when including Hammer of Wrath (which won't benefit from Smash anyway) leaves you just barely able to glance a tank to death, and only if you roll like a champ. It's totally useless against anything but Vehicles, and even then NOT using is probably going to inflict more reliable damage. In short, Smash is practically useless on a Wraithlord. I can see it being great for, say, Broods of Carnifex, but for us it's a major hit over the last editions rules for MC's.

The Fleet issue is, to me, not even remotely concerning. We are faster than average with Fleet, and everyone has received a less reliable Charge. Even then, because of Fleet, we're still better at charging than other armies. I don't see what the issue is, regardless of what the math-hammer says. Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar. That's the way it should be, doesn't matter if we're slower on the whole, because so is everyone else.

I do worry about Banshees though. The AP of a Power Sword means that Terminators are no longer a viable target for the girls, particularly when combined with their lower volume of attacks compared to Scorpions. The concern i've heard about the Executioner isn't an issue, because it clearly falls under the Unusual Power Weapon category, so the rules for Power Axes are irrelivent. Still, their going to cut holes in regular Power Armoured foes, as long as they can survive the Overwatch.

I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf... Armour Bane means that your max AP value is still 15, with your average being 10. Because you alwas hit the rear armour in CC, you're going to be regularly glancing vehicles to death, which of course means you never have to worry about explosions.

Smash gives you an AP value as well, how is that not a pro?

Everyone else is not slower on the whole.
*Generic non-fleeting unit*:
maximum charge range in 5th 12" (6" move 6" assault)
Maximum charge under 6th 18" (6" + 12" - this'll happen 1/36 times as opposed to no chance under 5th)
Minimum charge 8" (6"+2")
Average charge 13" (6" + 7")
Potential loss of 4" potential gain 6"

Fleet got slower and everyone else got faster.

Lazarus explains my issue with the witchblade.

[Irisado]

[mod]My moderation finger is getting twitchy guys, as some posts are getting close to being edited again. The important information sticky was updated to include a new link to the Eldar FAQ, so please make use of this link to avoid having to go into detail about the FAQ in your replies.[/mod]

I'm enjoying reading everyone's in game experiences being reported back in this thread, so please keep those coming  .

Regarding the Howling Banshee debate versus Terminators, I actually don't view this as having a significant impact over whether I take Howling Banshees.  The reason being is that if I was facing Marines in fifth edition, I wasn't using my Howling Banshees to assault Terminators, they were there for engaging regular Marine squads.  All this debate about whether to assault Terminators in sixth is, therefore, somewhat moot in my opinion.

A far better test of how Howling Banshees perform will be to evaluate their effectiveness against regular Marine squads, and see whether they can still cut it.  If anyone is interested in taking on that challenge over a number of games, I'd be interested to read the results.

[Lazarus]

All this debate about whether to assault Terminators in sixth is, therefore, somewhat moot in my opinion.

I think it is the fact that you are going to see more terminators. At least that is how it is working out here so far.

[Reepy]

Well... we cannot disembark from the safety of our own Serpents/Falcons and assault the same turn no matter whether the vehicle moved or not so... banshees took a great hit.

[Lazarus]

A far better test of how Howling Banshees perform will be to evaluate their effectiveness against regular Marine squads, and see whether they can still cut it.  If anyone is interested in taking on that challenge over a number of games, I'd be interested to read the results.

A buddy of mine always runs at least two full units of Banshees (and sometimes even 3). I will get with him and find out how things go in the new edition. My test lists for this week do not have them because I'm exploring other options that are less assault orriented.