Topic: 'nid list (1500 pts.)

[Eldarly guy]

This may be the third time I posted my list but now there's potential money saving involved.  So now it's actually important

here's what my list looks like now, I think I may be a few points short but it's more for the general idea:

Broodlord                                             90 pts
- Toxin Sacs
- 5 Genestealers                                    80 pts

3x Warriors                                           109 pts
-Enhanced Senses
-Extended Carapache
-2x Deathspitter
-1x Barbed Strangler + Toxin Sacs
-Rending Claws

3x Warriors                                            109 pts
Same as the previous warriors

1x Lictor                                                  80 pts

12x Hormagaunts                                    132 pts
- Adrenal Gland (+1 I)

12x Hormagaunts                                     132 pts

11x Termagaunts                                      66 pts

11x Termagaunts                                      66 pts

12x Termagaunts                                      72 pts

2x Raveners                                               80 pts
- Scything Talons
- Rending Claws

2x Raveners                                               80 pts
Same as previous

2x Zoanthrope                                           130 pts
- Synapse Creature
- Warp Blast

2x Carnifex                                                 272 pts (136 each)
-Enhanced Senses
-Venom Cannon
-Scything Talons

I now have a battleforce, warrior boxed set and a gaunts boxed set. If I drop 2 Raveners and the Biomorphs on the gaunts I can buy a battleforce and take a cc oriented or another shooty-rending warrior brood. Any thoughts?

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

I'd drop the lictor personally. And if you're going to buff hormagaunts, you might as well give them TS as well to really worry the MEQs. Otherwise looking pretty good, although you might want to consider giving the Broodlord Extended carapace

[Pathofskulls]

you might also want to give the genestealers extended carapaces, unless you want them blown to pieces, and dont run a single lictor your opponent will take advantage and destroy him before he gets his points back, run two or  more or none

[YuenglingDragon]

Did you just give toxin sacs to the warrior with the Barbed Strangler?  All models in a brood must have identical biomorphs.

I disagree that toxin sacs should be gien to the Hormagaunts.  The toxin sacs will work against any opponent short of toughness 6, but against MEq's two adrenal glands give you the ability to hit on 3's and go first (provided you don't get charged by a squad with furious assault or charge a squad in cover).

A lot of people on the boards hate the idea of a carnifex with both ranged and CC bioweapons and biomorphs.  I was recently converted to this way of thinking as well.  You may want to consider maximizing a single role for your carnifexs.

[Scalu]

  Yeah, drop the Lictor instead of the Raveners.  I always find that my raveners do a lot more damage overall than a Lictor, point for point.  I want to point out that all the warriors must get toxin sacs if you want them.  They can have different bio-weapons, but not different biomorphs.

  Yeah, the Carnifexes could be configured to be a bit more effective (2 Guns), but you are will end up spending more points too.  I field mine with a Venom Cannon and Devourers.

  I would get extended carapace for the Broodlord like Chuckles said.  I would also get them for the Genestealers too, just to make them last a bit longer.

  A word of advice and tips for the Broodlord:
  - Once his retinue is killed, he is an independant character, and cannot be targeted unless he's the closest model to an enemy unit, so don't deploy him far away from the rest of your forces, and get some guants in front of him to keep him from being targeted.
  - If his retinue is killed off, you can get him to combat more quickly if you have another brood that is between him and an enemy unit.  During your movement phase, just stretch the brood out so that it is within a 6" charge of the enemy, and withing about 7" from the Broodlord.  For the Broodlord's movement, move in and join that unit.  Finally, charge the unit it.  The broodlord will not get any attacks for the first combat phase or two, but he will be locked into combat, and safe from being shot, and when he reaches the enemy unit, they are in big trouble!

  I haven't had a chance to use these tactics myself, but I came up with them after my first time using a Broodlord ended up with him alone in the field, and then shot down, instead of reaching the enemy and tearing through their units.

[jonahgabriel]

I would get extended carapace for the Broodlord like Chuckles said.  I would also get them for the Genestealers too, just to make them last a bit longer.

  A word of advice and tips for the Broodlord:
  - Once his retinue is killed, he is an independant character, and cannot be targeted unless he's the closest model to an enemy unit, so don't deploy him far away from the rest of your forces, and get some guants in front of him to keep him from being targeted.
  - If his retinue is killed off, you can get him to combat more quickly if you have another brood that is between him and an enemy unit.  During your movement phase, just stretch the brood out so that it is within a 6" charge of the enemy, and withing about 7" from the Broodlord.  For the Broodlord's movement, move in and join that unit.  Finally, charge the unit it.  The broodlord will not get any attacks for the first combat phase or two, but he will be locked into combat, and safe from being shot, and when he reaches the enemy unit, they are in big trouble!

It seems that EC on the Broodlord is only good after his retinue gets killed off as the majority toughness rule is in effect until then.

Also, the broodlord can be targeted if he is not the closest model...all the opponent needs to do is to make a targeting priority check which for many armies with high leadership (i.e. Marines, Necrons) is not usually an issue. Even with Orks and Tau they will make their check about half the time.

I am also a little unclear about why the broodlord wouldn't get any attacks in the first combat phase or two after being locked in contact.

I have just started playing Tyranids again after a long absense, so if I have any of this stuff wrong, please let me know...

[Scalu]

It seems that EC on the Broodlord is only good after his retinue gets killed off as the majority toughness rule is in effect until then.

  The majority rules for Toughness is a bit different than the rules for different armour saves in a unit.  Look for the rules specific to the armour save.  It might be in the Independant Character rules.

Edit: Mixed Armour rules are at the end of the Universal Special Rules on page 76.

Also, the broodlord can be targeted if he is not the closest model...all the opponent needs to do is to make a targeting priority check which for many armies with high leadership (i.e. Marines, Necrons) is not usually an issue. Even with Orks and Tau they will make their check about half the time.

  I believe it's in the rules for Independant Characters, that they cannot be targeted if there is a unit that is closer, regardless of a target priority check.  Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: This is in the character rules in the Shooting At Characters section on page 51.

I am also a little unclear about why the broodlord wouldn't get any attacks in the first combat phase or two after being locked in contact.

  As an independant character, the broodlord doesn't get to make his attacks unless he can make into base to base contact with an enemy model.  This tip assumes that he is too far to make it into base to base, so he joins a unit that is close enough to charge 6".  This will lock him in the combat, but until he is able to consolidate into an enemy model, he doesn't get his attacks.

I have just started playing Tyranids again after a long absense, so if I have any of this stuff wrong, please let me know...

There are sooo many rules...  I'm still finding out new things about the 4th edition rules after playing for a few months.  I could definately be wrong on some of these and I don't have the rule book handy to check.  Any more experienced players around to confirm or correct these rules?

Edit: Okay, I found the rules and put where to find them above

[jonahgabriel]

Scalu, looks like you were right about pretty much everything! Thanks for the info!

[Eldarly guy]

Thanks for the loads of advice and a lot of what you guys said makes sense. Taking some of the advice you gave me I came up with this list:

Broodlord                                             90 pts
- Extended Carapace

- 5 Genestealers                                    100 pts
  - Extended Carapace

3x Warriors                                           99 pts
-Enhanced Senses
-Extended Carapace
-Deathspitters
-Rending Claws

3x Warriors                                            99 pts
Same as the previous warriors

3x Warriors                                            102 pts
- Adrenal Glands (I and WS)
- Extende Carapace
- Rending Claws + Scything Talons
- Flesh Hooks

12x Hormagaunts                                    120 pts

12x Hormagaunts                                     120 pts

11x Termagaunts                                      66 pts

11x Termagaunts                                      66 pts

12x Termagaunts                                      72 pts

2x Raveners                                               80 pts
- Scything Talons
- Rending Claws

2x Raveners                                               80 pts
Same as previous

2x Zoanthrope                                           130 pts
- Synapse Creature
- Warp Blast

2x Carnifex                                                 276 pts (138 each)
-Enhanced Senses
-Venom Cannon
-Devourers

I was already thinking about putting EC on the broodlord & co. but I didn't know where to get the points from, so many cool things to take and only so many points to work with..... I also wanted to stick to the list I had and only change biomorphs and such but now I changed it more I like it better.
I took a cc warrior squad because another shooty warrior squad would be a bit boring and this gives me a bit more punch in cc. (now I can also buy the battleforce which saves me some money  )
I ditched the lictor because last game I deepstriked it into a necron squad and that was 80 points down the drain for one model, just like that. It sounds great getting to deepstrike it in area terrain, but generally that's were you're opponent wants to be as well so not too much space to work with.
I dropped the biomorphs on the gaunts because I was going to anyway but forgot to get them out. I don't like the idea of hypergaunts and I just like them to be fast and tying up units.
I gave the carnifexes devourers, because he's too slow to get effectively in cc (maybe 2 turns) and he won't do too much there anyway. So I gave him devourer, giving him more punch against infantry and light vehicles.

P.S. the flesh hooks on the warriors are just there because I had 6 points to spare, 1500 points exactly 

Thanks a lot for the help

[Benandorf]

I don't like the carnifex with both VC and Devourer.  Means for most of the game, you will only be firing one, and they serve completely different purposes.  For instance, if you wanna kill a tank, you can't do squat with devourers.

My suggestion is make one with two devourers, and one with Venom Cannon/Barbed Strangler.

[Eldarly guy]

At first I was against a 'fex with two guns because I thought it should have some hackness (probably not an existing word but still  ) and I thought it certainly would need a pair of scything talons. So, although the sniperfex (that's what the VC/BS 'fex is called,right?) appealled to me I didn't take it... But what do you know I replaced my scything talons with guns, so why not get rid of two hormagaunts and take a barbed strangler on each of my 'fexes  Now to find a way to remove those scything talons  any ideas? (it's not painted yet)

edit:
Now I think of it, isn't the barbed strangler also for something completely else than the venom canon? I know it's S 8 and has a chance of damaging tanks but isn't it meant as anti-infantry?

Thanks

[Benandorf]

Yeah, BS gives carnis some good AI, but it is very long range, and also great for tanks (can actually pin, which is awesome against anything with AR 12 or below.

[Scalu]

Broodlord                                             90 pts
- Extended Carapace

This guy should only cost 80 pts.

I don't like the carnifex with both VC and Devourer.  Means for most of the game, you will only be firing one, and they serve completely different purposes.  For instance, if you wanna kill a tank, you can't do squat with devourers.

My suggestion is make one with two devourers, and one with Venom Cannon/Barbed Strangler.

Devourers on a Carnifex are good against AV12 and lower.  BS can hurt AV13 and AV14, but against AV13, it's only going to do something in 1 in 6 shots on average, and against AV14, 1 in 12 shots (every second game you play)  Not worth the extra points you pay for it in my opinion.  I like the Devourers because you tend to hit a lot more regularly than a BS and find them more reliable.  I've tried the VC/BS combo, and did not like it, so I switched to the VC/Devourer combo, and it's worked well for me since.  Try both and see what you like best.

[Benandorf]

Well, IMHO, BS is the best AI the nids have.  Str 8 large blast is scary to everyone, It has taken out large number of necrons in one shot for me.

And you have a 1/6 chance to glance a AR 12 thing (per turn) with devourers, and glancing is all you can do. On the other hand, against AR12, a BS has 1/4 chance to glance per turn, and 1/6 to pen it.

And it is much, much better against infantry.

[Scalu]

Well, IMHO, BS is the best AI the nids have.  Str 8 large blast is scary to everyone, It has taken out large number of necrons in one shot for me.

  You know, that would be awesome.  So it's definately better against Necron by far.  I've only played against the Necron once with my Tyranids, and barely won by phasing them out in turn 6.

And you have a 1/6 chance to glance a AR 12 thing (per turn) with devourers, and glancing is all you can do. On the other hand, against AR12, a BS has 1/4 chance to glance per turn, and 1/6 to pen it.

  1/6 is a bit misleading since that is for each hit.  With an average of 3 hits in a turn (4 twin linked shots), it's really a 1/2 chance to glance each turn.  The BS is only 1/4 change per turn to glance or pen it.  1/12 chance of just a glance + 1/6 chance of penetrating it.  So the Devourer will more _reliably_ effect AV12, although the BS has a chance to pen it.  Of course, the BS's range is twice that of the Devourer, so you get more shots off overall, but you pay for the extra range.

And it is much, much better against infantry.

  You're right, it is.  But it's not reliable since you only get 1 shot and only hit half of the time.  You can got through a games hitting with 5 out of 6 shots which is great, and then the next game you might only get 1 hit the entire game which sucks.  My preference is for the Devourers which I can be sure of causing some wounds each time I get some shots off, and I like that it keeps the Carnifex a bit cheaper point-wise too.

  I don't mind the shorter range of the devourers since I keep my carnifex moving foward each turn.  Also, the VC is pretty reliable at taking out the heavier armour, so I don't mind that it's all my carnifex is shooting sometimes because of range or high AV.

  I just wanted to ague that the VC/Devourer combo is a decent combo. 

[Benandorf]

1/6 is a bit misleading since that is for each hit.

But it isn't.  That was for 2 shots with a twin linked devourer (which I sorta did the math wrong, it is 4 shots per weapon with devs, and I forgot twin linked.)  So 2/3 chance to glance against AV of 12, a 1/9 chance to destroy.  However, glancing is the only chance, while a BS has a 1/4 chance to glance it or better, and a 1/6 to pen, giving a 1/8 chance to destroy against an AV of 12.  Anything higher and devs can't kill it, anything lower and BS has higher chance to pen it.

You know, that would be awesome.  So it's definately better against Necron by far.  I've only played against the Necron once with my Tyranids, and barely won by phasing them out in turn 6.

And take the str 8 blast against anything, as opposed to 4 str 6 shots.  When you hit with BS, lets say you get 8 orks under the template (which is a very small ammount, really).  You wound 6 of those, no saves.  Against the same mob with a dev, you hit 4 times (thanks to twin linked) of which 4 wound, and they make maybe 1 save.  So at max, you get 4 wounds, as opposed to a large blast str 8, which would kill twice that on its best days.  So you only hit half the time, so you get 6 wounds every two turns at 36", instead of 3 or 4 every turn at 18", which is a lot harder to stay at without being charged.  PLUS you get pinning.

I like Devourers, that isn't the question.  But the fact is that a sniperfex is better if you want a great shooty carni, while a dakkafex is better if you want elite.  If you want VC for the anti-tank or the range, grab another BS.  More anti-tank, longer range, and equal and better anti-infantry.

Just my thoughts.  Devs are good for a cheap fex (and 8 str 6 shots rerolling wounds and hits is scary at less than 115 points) but if you already pay for a VC, go ahead and get a BS.  Both will use their max str, and 36" range for both, one giving str 8 large blast and PINNING, one giving 2 str 10 shots, will win out against anything worth killing.

[Scalu]

Just my thoughts.  Devs are good for a cheap fex (and 8 str 6 shots rerolling wounds and hits is scary at less than 115 points) but if you already pay for a VC, go ahead and get a BS.  Both will use their max str, and 36" range for both, one giving str 8 large blast and PINNING, one giving 2 str 10 shots, will win out against anything worth killing.

Sorry, I guess I need that re-roll to hit and to wound for my bad dice rolling.      Anyways, yes, the BS is all round better, and you pay more for it because of that, but well worth it for most people.  Myself, I'll stick with my VC/Dev combo.