Topic: 1500 against Dark angels

[Der goldene Reiter]

Ok, I have a game coming up next Saturday at my local store, this time it will be a 1500 pt game against Dark angels, more specifically the Deathwing. Correct me if i´m wrong, but I think that means there will be a fairly high number of Terminators and Land Raiders. So with this in mind, and also that I´m trying to play with hammer and anvil tactics, I've come up with the following list:

Farseer, stones, doom , fortune 130

10 guardians, warloch with embolden and scatter laser 125

10 dire avengers, exarch with dual cats and bladestorm 152
Wave serpent, stones and bright lance 145

10 banshees, exarch with executioner 182
Wave serpent, stones, shuriken cannon 110

6 fire dragons 96
Wave serpent, stones, shuriken cannon 110

Wraithlord, bl and eml 155

Wraithlord, bl and eml 155

This leaves me with 140 points, but i´m not so sure what I should get with  them. I´m thinking I could either get a War walker squadron with shuriken cannons, as they would pump out enough of that strenght 6 firepower to down meqs and terminators or another troops option, as my current list only features 2. In this case I think I would opt for a secon guardian defender squad to join my anvil. Apart from that, I could give the farseer row, but I´m not so sure as I don´t know if dark angels tend to field many librarians. 

Now on to the tactics: my anvil consists of the two wraithlords, and their guardian babysitters. The rest of the army will be my hammer, with the farseer riding with the banshees. I would ram everything into the same flank and have everything work together.

Apart from that, other choices i´m considering to fill in my army are scorpions to guard the anvil, spiders as a linking element, and rangers instead of the second guardian team. But as I said, im completely open to your suggestions, so please coment and if possible optimize my list.

Cheers (and a happy new year )

[chaotic_sykotic]

I'd consider another squad of dragons.  Those guys show termies no mercy.  I would try to spread out some stuff that will  not allow them to get those 2+ saves.  Starcannons, Prisms, BLs, Dragons, Banshees, Wraithguard, maybe Reapers if he does bring some 3+ stuff.

[Dunedain]

You could try dropping a single banshee and getting an avatar, as i hear he is pretty good at killing off teqs.

[Irisado]

Your mechanised wing looks pretty good, but your anvil is too weak in my view, and if a Land Raider full of Terminators, or even just Deep Striking Terminators head towards your infantry, you do not have much that can stop them.

Against Deathwing, I think there is a pretty solid argument for taking a second squad of Fire Dragons instead of the Howling Banshees.  This is because Howling Banshees can struggle against Assault Terminators if they contain multiple models armed with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, so it's usually better to shoot them instead of assaulting, and there is a danger of facing two Land Raiders in Deathwing armies at this level of points, so taking only one Fire Dragon squad is marginal.

If you do take two units of Fire Dragons, you could diversify them, so that one stays as it is, while the other takes on a more dual purpose role, so that if there are not as many Land Raiders as you expect, you can cause infantry squads more harm.  To this end, I suggest taking a second squad of eight, led by an Exarch with the Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crack Shot for additional diversity.

As far as your anvil is concerned, I definitely recommend adding the Striking Scorpions.  They can take on regular Terminators in an assault, as well as regular Marines, but again, I don't advise sending them into combat against assault Terminators, as you really do need to shoot them to pieces.  Mass strength six firepower is effective against Terminators, as is Bladestorm when combined with Doom, so I think that Warp Spiders would be a good choice in this list, while a second squad of Guardians with a Scatter Laser would also help, and boost the number of scoring units in your army.

The Avatar could be useful, but I don't think you can afford to take him in a 1500 point game as well as two Wraithlords, and I think you need the Wraithlords to take out any other transports which the Dark Angels plays may field to support the Land Raiders, so you probably will have to leave the Avatar out.

Overall, the list looks quite good, providing you strengthen the anvil, but the number of Terminators and Land Raiders that a Deathwing player is likely to field means that I think it is better to shoot his/her forces to pieces, rather than assault them, so while the Howling Banshees could be useful, I feel that, on balance, more Fire Dragons would be better.

EDIT: Having made that comment about the Terminators, if he is using the Dark Angels Codex, rather than the Space Marines Codex, then the Terminators will not have the same bonuses as those which are fielded in new Space Marines Codex, so the Howling Banshees could still work, providing you crack open the Land Raiders transporting the Assault Terminators first.  That said, I still have found that shooting at any type of Assault Terminator squad is better than engaging it in an assault, so the Fire Dragons would still probably be the better bet.

I hope that helps.

[enlg]

heres something you should consider

deathwing have old cyclone missiles, so they will probably have almost ALL assault cannons as their anti-tank from their infantry

dreadnoughts+land raiders are their other anti-tank, so that would be missiles (not many) lascannons, and multi-melta

wraithlords will get rended, I'd strongly advice leaving them out
wave serpents are the BEST unit against them, they ignore rending, make lascannons str8, and ignore melta rules.

lastly I'd take atleast 2 wave serpents with twin-brightlances

for the war walkers, consider this, lascannons+missiles will probably be aiming for your wave serpents (highest priority, as they have troops in them), so assault cannons will be the main gun to shoot at the war walkers. That means that taking shuriken cannons, which have the same range as assault cannons, is not a good idea. Taking scatter laser-star cannon would probably be the best type of war walker to take here.

they would be 70pts each, so taking 2 of them would be strong. 2 walkers are easier to hide than 3, and they can shoot terminators from further away than they can get shot at, and since they are mobile, they can move away as the terminators advance.

for the fire dragons, take a couple more, I'd say a squad of 8 is best. You want to have a unit of fire dragons so you can hit his command squad with the apothecary, fusion guns won't care, and hopefully they will be able to instakill their HQ too.


sorry that my notes/advice is so scattered, but if you can, replace a wraithlord with a wave serpent.

What I would make your list as (basically)

(130)-farseer, doom, guide, spirit stones, runes of witnessing (I replaced fortune with guide, as besides your vehicles, the majority of their weapons that shoot you will not give you armor saves, and in close combat they are all power weapons. guide lets you increase the power of the dire avengers, fire dragons, guardians, and war walkers).

(240)-10 guardians+wave serpent with brightlances, stones, drop the warlock as its such a small unit

(297)-10 dire avengers+wave serpent with brightlances, stones

(292)-10 howling banshees+wave serpent with shuirken cannons, stones

(238)-8 fire dragons+wave serpent with shuriken cannons, stones

(140)-war walkers x2, 2 scatter lasers, 2 star cannons

(140)-war walkers x2, 2 scatter lasers, 2 star cannons

Total=1477pts, you still have 23 points to work with, personally I think right now this list is fine versus deathwing, if you want you could upgrade one wave serpent to have twin-star cannons, although its not necessary.

cheers, Cloud

[Irisado]

wraithlords will get rended, I'd strongly advice leaving them out

I've faced rending before against my Wraithlords, and it is not as powerful as it was in fourth edition, so I wouldn't be too concerned about this.  In addition, if the Deathwing player starts firing lots of Assault Cannons at the Wraithlords, instead of at the far more fragile Eldar infantry, I think that this would actually be a good thing, since you want Wraithlords to attract fire away from the ground troops, thus I would recommend keeping them.

[enlg]

true, although I still feel that going mechanized is the best approach to fighting deathwing, as the considerable advantages that wave serpents have against those weapons, even if wraithlords aren't that bad against them.

[Der goldene Reiter]

I´ve decided to kepp the wraithlords. The main reason for this is that I don´t have enough wave serpent models to go fully mech though  , but I agree with Irisado that they'll be tough to kill even with rending weapons (hopefully).

I'm completely droping the banshees in favor of that second fire dragon unit. As for my unit of choice for the anvil, I think scorpions are the best bet because of my overall lack of dedicated cc. Hopefully this will give the anvil enough consistance to make the guardians endure the whole game, as I will be running short on troops.

As for the farseer, his new role on the battlefield could be to acompany and guide the avengers, and also doom whatever they will be shooting at. Keeping the fire dragons close enough would maybe give me the chance of guiding them instead depending on the situation... I assume the scorpions will be too far back to also benefit from doom, but in their counter charge role they should only be charging softened up units anyway. I don't know how good it is to drop fortune, as it really does make me more confident when moving the serpents at full speed towards the enemy. Finally, when you talk about runes of witnessing, do you mean the more expensive ones? That´s what I think, but I wasn't sure as my codex is not in English.

I'm reluctant to add another bright lance to the serpents because they would already be carrying a dedicated anti armor unit, and I feel that would just be too many eggs in the same basket.

So with this in mind the list would look like this:

Farseer, runes of witnessing, stones, guide, doom 130

10 guardians, warlock, embolden sl 125

10 avengers, exarch dual cats, bladestorm 152
Wave serpent, stones, bl 145

6 dragons 96
Wave serpent, stones, shuriken cannon 110

8 dragons, exarch, db flamer, crack shot 145
Wave serpent, stones, shuriken cannon 110

8 scorpions, exarch, claw 155

Wraithlord, bl eml 155

Wraithlord, bl eml 155

I would like to completely flesh out the scorpions, but I just dont have the models... so with those 22 spare points I could get a singing spear, upgrade the serpents to sl instead of sc and buy one more guardian.

[Irisado]

As for the farseer, his new role on the battlefield could be to acompany and guide the avengers, and also doom whatever they will be shooting at. Keeping the fire dragons close enough would maybe give me the chance of guiding them instead depending on the situation

Neither of these units really need Guide cast on them to get the job done in my experience.  Casting Fortune on a Wave Serpent which has just moved flat out would be better, or you could field the Farseer on foot and cast Fortune on the Striking Scorpions, or a Wraithlord, or even the Guardians (assuming that they are in cover).  Guide does have its uses, but not really in this list, as I feel it is better suited to Eldar armies with a large fire base, so if you don't want to take Fortune, I suggest dropping the second power and Spirit Stones, and spending those points elsewhere.

Finally, when you talk about runes of witnessing, do you mean the more expensive ones? That´s what I think, but I wasn't sure as my codex is not in English.

Which language version of the codex do you use just out of interest?  You have them backwards.  Runes of Warding are the most expensive runes, and they could be useful if you expect to face a Librarian.  There is, however, absolutely no need to give the Farseer Runes of Witnessing in my experience.  The Farseer has high enough leadership not to need them, and they increase his/her chances of suffering a Perils of the Warp Attack, so I suggest dropping them.

I assume the scorpions will be too far back to also benefit from doom, but in their counter charge role they should only be charging softened up units anyway. I don't know how good it is to drop fortune, as it really does make me more confident when moving the serpents at full speed towards the enemy.

I've discussed Fortune above, but regarding the Striking Scorpions, there is no need to think of them and the Guardians as being static.  Remember, they can advance and the Guardians can still keep shooting, so once you have knocked out some of the units which could shoot your infantry to pieces, don't be afraid to advance if there are no Land Raiders full of Terminators heading towards you.

As far as the revised list is concerned, I think it's pretty solid, but I'm just a bit concerned about your lack of scoring units, and I really think a second Guardian Defender squad with a Scatter Laser would be helpful.

If you were to field the Farseer with just one power, downgrade the Brightlance on the Wave Serpent to a Shuriken Cannon, and then combine these savings with the points you have left over, you could field a second Defender squad with a Scatter Laser, albeit without a Warlock, which I also feel would give your list a better balance between the mechanised and infantry elements.

I hope that helps.

[Der goldene Reiter]

I think the second guardian unit is needed, so regarding the configuration of the farseer, it comes down to runes of warding + doom/fortune, with the idea of having him ride with the avengers. So  the question now is what power will bring me the most benefit.

Because the fortuneseer is slighly more expensive than the doomseer, taking him would mean giving the guardians a shuriken cannon instead of the scatter laser, which isn't very convincing.

Having stated this, the build i'm thinking of is doom and the scatter laser guardians, but I just wanted to know if you think fortune could be more helpful.

Which language version of the codex do you use just out of interest?  You have them backwards.  Runes of Warding are the most expensive runes, and they could be useful if you expect to face a Librarian.  There is, however, absolutely no need to give the Farseer Runes of Witnessing in my experience.  The Farseer has high enough leadership not to need them, and they increase his/her chances of suffering a Perils of the Warp Attack, so I suggest dropping them.

I use the Spanish version of the eldar codex, and I just noticed I had them backwards anyway, my bad   

Thanks for your help

[Irisado]

To answer your question, Doom benefits more units in this list than Fortune does, so I suggest taking that if it comes down to a choice between the two.

Also, as you say, giving the Guardians a Shuriken Cannon wouldn't be of much help when they are foot, so for that reason, I feel that taking Doom instead of Fortune is necessary, so that you can keep the Scatter Laser.

I use the Spanish version of the eldar codex, and I just noticed I had them backwards anyway, my bad   

I thought it might be, judging by your personal text  .

I hope that helps.

[Der goldene Reiter]

Just thought I'd post that today's battle was a total succes. We played a take an hold mission (I think that's what it's called), and not only did I manage to win, I also completely wiped him out. He fielded 2 lnd raiders (one of them a crusader), three terminator units, one of them with his commander and a venerable dreadnought.

My main drawback during the game was the full loss of both fire dragon units (after they had taken care of both land raiders). I find it almost impossible to keep these guys alive, as they're automatically my enemies first priority, no matter how I try to give them cover with the serpents and block LOS with the raiders. Also, I found doom invaluable to saturate his terminators with armor saves (bladestorm + doom + scorpions charge = dead terminator squad )
 
Thanks for all your wonderful advice, it really was very helpful 

[Irisado]

It's always good to receive positive feedback, and I'm pleased that you won the game .

It is harder to keep two Fire Dragon squads alive than one in my view, because you have fewer alternative units to pressurise your opponent, and/or work with the Dragons, to cause him/her target priority problems, but it sounds as though they fulfilled their role in this game, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Remember, against opponents with less emphasis on heavily armoured tanks, you could afford to take just one squad of Fire Dragons and make your army a bit more diverse, which could help to resolve this problem.  Fire Dragons will always be a very high priority target for Deathwing players, so there isn't always much you can do about it against them, whereas against other armies, I feel you have other units which can constitute as much of a threat, thus taking the heat of the Fire Dragons (pun intended  ).

I hope that helps.