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Author Topic: Margaret Thatcher GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE  (Read 14158 times)

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:52:20 PM by Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown »
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Offline Benis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #1 on: April 8, 2013, 08:16:12 AM »
Had a feeling this would be about Thatcher. ;)

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #2 on: April 8, 2013, 08:22:23 AM »
I'm torn. Half of me is a politics student thoroughly and successfully trained to take an objective position, who respects the obstacles she had to overcome and her attempts to make Britain a better place (no matter how successful or not). The other half of me wants to go outside and dance.

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #3 on: April 8, 2013, 08:35:58 AM »
This may be because I am Canadian, but I have to say that I am rather disgusted that you are celebrating the death of a former leader of your country.

She might not have been popular, but that is not really a reason to celebrate her passing.  You will never catch me doing a dance when Stephen Harper or George W. Bush dies...

If this is the general feeling of the people of the UK, then I must say I am very disappointed in our brothers on the other side of the Atlantic.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2013, 08:54:43 AM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #4 on: April 8, 2013, 08:46:40 AM »
With my politics tutor hat on, I'd actually argue that there's no such thing as an objective position in any case ;).

I can't say that I will recall her tenure as prime minister with any great fondness, particularly in the latter years, when her European policy left the UK well and truly facing the abyss in European negotiations, and left us isolated.  That's not to say that she didn't have any qualities, she certainly could lead, but the fact that she was such an uncompromising figure was extremely divisive, and her attitude towards the public sector in this country was, in my opinion, not at all constructive.

I wrote a substantial project on her for GCSE coursework many years ago.  She was certainly a character, and had to be tough to compete in a very male dominated environment.  I have respect for how hard she had to work to get to where she got to.

Apart from Europe, I'll remember her mostly for her relationship with Reagan, and their collective championing of neo-liberalism, and the free market.  I suspect this is where the great divide will remain.  If you're a massive supporter of the capitalist free market system, deregulation, and neo-liberalist economic policies, then you'll probably have been a fan.  If, like me, you're more sceptical about this, then you're more likely to take a more critical view of her time in office.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #5 on: April 8, 2013, 08:54:57 AM »
This may be because I am Canadian, but I have to say that I am rather disgusted that you are celebrating the death of a former leader of your country.

She might not have been popular, but that is not really a reason to celebrate her passing.  You will never catch me doing a dance when Stephen Harper or George W. Bush dies...

I'd be a lot happier if her death actually meant anything in terms of undoing her decisions. It would be nice if her death, for example, undid the vicious gutting of Britain's manufacturing and mining industries, the massive expansion of the Square Mile (and the subsequent financial meltdown we're all enduring). The truth is that none of those things will happen, and the death of an 87 year old lady makes little if any difference to the fate of the UK.

But as a Canadian I think it's probably hard for you to understand the depth of the feeling regarding Thatcher over here. My family hails from the North, and just mentioning her name can be dicey. She really did destroy the economy of the North of Britain, with no effort made to replace what she tore down. There are areas which used to thrive which remain ghost towns today, over 30 years since she became PM, as a result of her premiership. I think it's silly, but I can understand people getting closure from her death. She lived a long and happy life- more than can be said for many British workers thanks to her.
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Offline Fealhach

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #6 on: April 8, 2013, 09:45:54 AM »
The argument for the policies was the modernisation of Britain, but the state of the country now proves the benefits were short term for many and only long term for the top few. The Blair regime was like the second era of Thatcherism with some gimmicky policies half-heartedly tacked on to make it look like socialists were control. So, while so many of the left take glee in the death of an elderly lady, think of how Labour's enthusiasm for globalisation will impact on our country and the rest of the world.

And no I don't like the LibDems either! :D

Offline Benis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #7 on: April 8, 2013, 11:09:44 AM »
The impression I've had is that a lot of what she did would have been necessary in either case sooner or later but that the rise of the UK financial sector compared to its industries wasn't really that brilliant. Old politicians always end up being a caricature, saint or villain depends on your own political views or the national impression of them. Palme is still a saint up here no matter how much information is revealed or how long the historical perspective on his actions becomes.

This may be because I am Canadian, but I have to say that I am rather disgusted that you are celebrating the death of a former leader of your country.

Sounds a lot like "My country, right or wrong", blatant nationalism basically. Now, I could find it unappealing that anyone would celebrate the death of another human being but that the fact that the human had an office of power at one point in one's country's history should somehow make it even more heinous sounds ridiculous to me.


Offline Killing Time

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #8 on: April 8, 2013, 03:25:18 PM »
beslubber political correctness.
I'm gonna party.

The be-atch destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of working class Britons, and ruined the manufacturing foundations necessary for a stable first world economy that isn't built on a financial house of cards.
She sold off all the family silver in her rampant, greed induced frenzy of privitisation, and did it all under the aegis of free market modernisation, but in reality was just looting by any other name.

And she gave us Blair.


If this is the general feeling of the people of the UK, then I must say I am very disappointed in our brothers on the other side of the Atlantic.

Meh.
beslubber her.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #9 on: April 8, 2013, 03:31:01 PM »
You read WAAAAAAAY too much into what I said.  I mentioned being Canadian because I don't know the details on what she did to Britain.  I found it disgusting that pipe are celebrating her death, not just chuckles but many people I know from the UK.  And I mentioned who she was... the former leader of the nation.

Celebrating someones death is a dispixable act, regardless of who they are.  Be it a former leader of a nation or a criminal.  Part of the reason why I am against execution in ever instance, but that is another matter.

If you think about it, what you are saying is "Hey k just read an old lady had a stroke and died.  How ducking awesome is that?!"

It's not about being politically correct, it is about being a decent human being.  And congratulations Killing Time, you have lost absolutely all of the respect I had for you in one post.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #10 on: April 8, 2013, 03:52:42 PM »
You read WAAAAAAAY too much into what I said.  I mentioned being Canadian because I don't know the details on what she did to Britain.  I found it disgusting that pipe are celebrating her death, not just chuckles but many people I know from the UK.  And I mentioned who she was... the former leader of the nation.

The fact that she was the leader of the country is why she becomes immune to the usual boundaries of respect that the average Joe gets upon their death.
She held a position of power and responsibilty that she could have used to do great good for the country. She was charismatic and strong willed and could have been truly amazing. Instead she chose to rip out the backbone of the country and sell it off to her chums.
In the eyes of many she was worse than a criminal.

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It's not about being politically correct, it is about being a decent human being.  And congratulations Killing Time, you have lost absolutely all of the respect I had for you in one post.

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #11 on: April 8, 2013, 04:08:11 PM »
Because she lead a nation she is exempt from even a modicum of respect?  Bullamphetamine parrot.

Flat out bullamphetamine parrot.

Can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies from you then?  I mean he must be worse than a common criminal.  Because of his actions over 50,000 have died since 2003.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #12 on: April 8, 2013, 04:08:12 PM »
I have a lot of respect for Margaret Thatcher, but not necessarily for her policies. She was that very rare thing- a policitian who actually did what she said without all the double talk and two face lying (look at Tony Blair or even David Cameron). Now, many people did not like what she did, often with good reason, but at least you saw it coming. I value honesty very highly. She was also very successful in a very male dominated world.

I think she was right the that the UK needed reforming and the power of the unions needed breaking, but that does not mean I liked how she did it, or how far she went. Allowing more people to become home owners seems like a good thing too (allowing purchasing of council housing). I respect her handling of the Falklands war- I don't like the small guy getting stomped on. Whether you like her policies regarding the city of London depends on your view of economics- I think it went much too far, but I am not sure if this is a right/wrong thing- economics is a social science, not a hard science, for a reason, and hindsight is 20-20. I think she was overly isolationist on Europe, and that hurt us long term (but I am glad we never joined the Euro).

The BBC said she was the most significant politician in the last 50 years and it is hard to argue with, no matter whether you think she was a devil or an angel or somewhere inbetween.


Gloating over someone dying says far more about the gloater than the dead.


Killing Time- do you support the death penalty?

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #13 on: April 8, 2013, 04:16:11 PM »
[gmod]Death penalty discussion is for another topic. Keep it out of here.[/gmod]
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #14 on: April 8, 2013, 04:29:30 PM »
I have a lot of respect for Margaret Thatcher, but not necessarily for her policies. She was that very rare thing- a policitian who actually did what she said without all the double talk and two face lying (look at Tony Blair or even David Cameron). Now, many people did not like what she did, often with good reason, but at least you saw it coming. I value honesty very highly. She was also very successful in a very male dominated world.

I think she was right the that the UK needed reforming and the power of the unions needed breaking, but that does not mean I liked how she did it, or how far she went. Allowing more people to become home owners seems like a good thing too (allowing purchasing of council housing). I respect her handling of the Falklands war- I don't like the small guy getting stomped on. Whether you like her policies regarding the city of London depends on your view of economics- I think it went much too far, but I am not sure if this is a right/wrong thing- economics is a social science, not a hard science, for a reason, and hindsight is 20-20. I think she was overly isolationist on Europe, and that hurt us long term (but I am glad we never joined the Euro).

In the main I agree with this, in that something needed to be done and she did do something.
What she did however was go on an ideological crusade that destroyed lives and communities that have still not recovered.


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Gloating over someone dying says far more about the gloater than the dead.


Really?
I think that's a very simplistic platitude.

Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #15 on: April 8, 2013, 04:52:39 PM »
Can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies from you then?  I mean he must be worse than a common criminal.  Because of his actions over 50,000 have died since 2003.

Maybe if he had died 10 years ago, but now it sooner like to see him in front of the International Court of Justice, not that i (or he) will ever life to see it.

Concerning Thatcher, its true that she broke the unions back. Its also true that she established capitalism to a degree previously unknown in Britain. The other side of the coin was, that if my memory serves me right, Britains heavy industry has been pretty much finished at this point, because it simply hadnt been competitive anymore.

Germany had actually a similar problem 10 years ago. The wages where high and the industry outsourced everything it could into low wage countries. Chancellor Schröder was a bit like Thatcher and his reforms (Agenda 2010) are still polarizing public opinions. He reduced job protection. He opened the doors for the temp agency and low paid jobs, thus creating a low wage sector previously unknown. He also did cut the social savety nets down to size (Hartz IV) and opened the doors for the international financial markets (hedgefonds, private equity (often referred to as "locusts")).

The results where different though. We are now a medium wage country and the chasm between rich and poor is larger than ever. But right now we are economically the most powerfull nation within the EU. The unemployment rates are stable on a relative low level and we even might soon be able to archieve a ballanced budget. One of the reasons why this has been possible is, because our unions basically agreed to such low income increases, that they lay often below or close to the inflation rate, and that over years.

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, and you have to pray that when the time comes the right person sits on the "throne".


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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #17 on: April 8, 2013, 05:06:53 PM »
Just look where the neo-liberalism-thatcher-reagan-era-fiat-money-free-market-crap has gotten us. how can one not hate these kinda people?

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can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies then?

i'm counting the days.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2013, 05:08:19 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #18 on: April 8, 2013, 05:38:57 PM »
I missed this post earlier.

Because she lead a nation she is exempt from even a modicum of respect?  Bullamphetamine parrot.

I had no respect for her when she was alive.
To suddenly change my tune now that she's dead would be terrible hypocrisy.
And as the articles posted by Chuckles demonstrate; if I believe she was wrong, why should I stay silent while her supporters use her death to glorify her works?


Quote
Can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies from you then?  I mean he must be worse than a common criminal.  Because of his actions over 50,000 have died since 2003.

Yes you may.
He's a villainous scumbag who destroyed a country with bombs to help out his mates in the oil industry.
It's a shame I'm an atheist because he's a perfect candidate for rotting in hell.


A compelling case for not lionising public figures after their death.

And another one

I was about to post the Guardian article. It's a good read.
Thanks for the Hitchens stuff.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #19 on: April 8, 2013, 05:47:37 PM »
While i may not like much of what Thatcher did, or what she stood for, she was certainly the caliber of leader which is sorely lacking in modern politics. her handling of both the IRA bombing of that Tory function, and the Falklands War were indicative of someone who was very much in charge, but more than that, someone who was actually capable of making tough decisions when they were needed, and not 6 months later.

I do agree with GML, however, everyone deserves some respect by simple merit of their being human. Were our (Canada's) current PM to die tommorow (maybe in a fiery plane crash into Yeti infested mountains) i would cease and desist all my personal attacks against him. I'd still criticize his decisions and policy, but not his worth as a human being. Death is never something that should be celebrated, in any form. 
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