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Offline azelexx

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Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« on: January 30, 2010, 02:16:36 AM »
Hi everyone,

Another tournament coming up within the next month. Trying out new ways of balancing the army, here's what I've got so far:

HQ:
Farseer (Fortune) 85
8x Warlocks (2x Destructor, Enhance, Embolden, 5x Spears) 255
Wave Serpent (TL-Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engine) 150

Farseer (Spirit Stone, Guide, Fortune, Runes of Warding) 140

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers 60

9x Dire Avengers (Exarch, Twin Catapult, Bladestorm) 140
Wave Serpent (TL-EML, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 140

5x Guardian Jetbikes

5x Guardian Jetbikes

Elites
5x Fire Dragons 80

Heavy Support
Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 200

Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 200

3x War Walker Squadron (6x Scatter Lasers) 180

----------------
Total: 1850 point, 12 kill points, 4 scoring units.

Capabilities
For long range anti tank there's EML, 2x Bright Lances, 2x Pulse Laser. All shooting from durable vehicles.

For medium to short range anti tank there's Singing Spears and Fire Dragons which are very reliable. (Ofcourse there's also the long range anti tank to shoot too)

For anti infantry, there are 4x Shuriken Cannons, Scatter Lasers, 10 Jetbike catapults, War Walkers scatter lasers, destructors and a squad of bladestorming Dire Avengers. Should be more than enough to take on foot infantry.

For assault units, 8 warlocks with 19 attacks on the charge (S9 vs Vehicles and 2+ wound for infantry) all fortuned up will be a tough tar pitter and can easily deal with deep strike threats like Ironclad dreadnaughts.

For scoring units, Dire Avengers in transports are tough, while Jetbikes turbo boost around. 4 total scoring units is not bad for a 1850 list.

Tactic
This list has to be played defensively for the first few turns until enemy comes close or I turbo boost in last turn. Wave serpent with EML and Dire Avengers stay back on home objective. Falcons and other wave serpent also stay behind cover and shoot, providing fire support, enemy will be reluctant to come close because fire dragons and seer council is a major threat. Behind the vehicle gunline are the war walkers dishing out mass S6 shots and are fortuned. Finally jetbikes stay in cover (better is out of sight) until get read to deal with incoming infantry or turbo boost to objective.

Open for any comments.



Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 03:53:07 AM »
You have a lot of aggressive units to take a defensive tactic.

Fire dragons with basic build... aggressive.
seer council...  aggressive
shooty avengers... aggressive

Falcons... defensive
warwalkers... defensive in back field... (aggressive if outflanked)

Not really sure where the guided seer fits in....

now as for what stands out at me... 
coucils Wave serpant is way too overloaded with points... star engines are not needed as much since 5th ed.. chin SC..  not the best place to put this I dont really like them that much in 5th either.. just personal preference...

fire dragons in a falcon..   was a 4th edition manuever..   now that FD are our heavy hitters in the form of anti-tank the Wave Serpant gives them a greater benefit as they will be more often than not in your opponents possibly short melta range as well.   

your tactic with the fire dragons could work considering advancing land raiders but do you really want land raiders at your line before you stop them?

A mech build usually goes for light weapon denial... and although you can or possibly could give your bikes and walkers a save... you also aren't denying your opponent the ability to use his mid-low strength weapons.   Which in my opinion is one of the main benefits of fielding a mech army...   other than of course speed. 

The warlock build will have a hard time assaulting into marine type armies.  The spears will limit the amount of attacks you have and the power armor will still get a save vs destructors.   You need to have guarenteed kills as even though the council has inv. saves with fortune... they are still only so good.  Losing combat with them could prove fatal which is why a lot of mech builds use yriel for the almost guarenteed kills he can put out. 

The bikes are ok...  if reserved they can be a decent scoring unit.  I don't see bikes achieving that much else.   Their short rage but them in a place where they don't want to be... especially against an assault oriented unit and the basic weapon doesn't put down enough of your opponent unless they have very weak armor.   An SC or two could help... but I am still on the fence about it. 
   

Offline moc065

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 09:07:08 AM »
I will attack this in two parts; as it is innovative and somewhat unique to what many people are doing....
     First some comments, and then a moc-score.



HQ:
Farseer (Fortune) 85
8x Warlocks (2x Destructor, Enhance, Embolden, 5x Spears) 255
I am thinking that 1 more Embolden and maybe 1-2 less spears would actually work better.
Wave Serpent (TL-Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon, Star Engine) 150
I don't see the need for the Shuri-cannons as their range is still too short for use when the vehicle is only moving 6"... I do like the idea of all these "Gun Boats" but I also see them as a few wasted points adding up to something that could be substantially better (I would drop this cannon)

Farseer (Spirit Stone, Guide, Fortune, Runes of Warding) 140
From the rest of the list I would have chosen Guide & Doom, as fortune is not being used for much; unless you intend on fortuning vehicles in which case, you will have to have cover available, or being moving too fast for "Gun Boat" tactics.

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers 60
DAVU; not my style; but it is effective.

9x Dire Avengers (Exarch, Twin Catapult, Bladestorm) 140
I know it is not much; but I would try to get a full squad.
Wave Serpent (TL-EML, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 140
Here I actually like the Shuri-cannons and have actually had good success with EML/Shuri-cannon vehicles in general.

5x Guardian Jetbikes
5x Guardian Jetbikes
Weird... I would go with 6 & 3 so that you can take full advantage of the Shuri-cannon ratio, I know that the 3 pack special is near dead... so for that unit I would try to shove more bodies as I gained points; but I would make sure I had the solid 6 first.

Elites
5x Fire Dragons 80
FDVU; again not my style; but it can be seriously effective.

Heavy Support
Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 200
Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 200
I like it and hate it all at once... Your tactics of 6" move could make it a power house vs MC's or vehicles, etc... but its also getting pretty expensive and the Shuri-cannon range and use does not compliment the Pulse or BL... I think that I would simply drop them

3x War Walker Squadron (6x Scatter Lasers) 180
Wow. This is not often seen within MechDar lists; but it can be so effective in today's metagame that I am surprised by its lack of usage. I would not be Fortune-ing them though, as they are still soft... simply consider when/if to outflank, or use their move & range to waste entire units.

----------------
Total: 1850 point, 12 kill points, 4 scoring units.

Capabilities
Tactic
Thanks for putting these two write ups in here, as they really will help others to see how the list can be used. Nice list for a starting point, now only a few tweeks and it will be tournie ready.

Cheers


moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential Only half of the working groups even have AT, and some of that is only side/rear potential, so overall I actually see this as being a little Below Average 0.5
2.. Anti-MEQ potential The FD's, and the big guns are the only AM out there, a few nice combo's and mass shooting groups though, so overall I see this as Above Average 0.7
3.. Anti-Horde potential Serious lack of templates overall (as they could easily be added at very low cost)... mass shooting is there, and the speed will helps though, so overall I see it as Average 0.6
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Its a mixed bag of firepower and this I like, I simply don't like the mix being on the same platforms and what is good vs Armour is not great vs Infantry, etc... Its still got lots of ranged firepower though, thus I score it as Above Average 0.7
5.. Assault potential The Council is not the greatest assault unit, especially not all on its own... thus I see this area as needing some help and score it as Below Average 0.5
6.. Scoring Units / point level 4 Scoring units is decent; but some of them are just too soft and need to be redefined, thus I only score it as Average 0.6
7.. Durability or Resilience Once again, some really good and durable stuff, and then there are some things that are begging to to picked on. So once again I only score it as Average 0.6
8.. Flexability The list is flexible; but it has to be used with caution at the start of almost every game, and vs other Mech/fast armies it will suffer... thus I only score it as Average  0.6
9.. Mission Capabiliy The list can handle any mission that I can think of, even some of the weird RTT ones... So here I think its actually Very Good 0.9 and any changes must consider the dynamics of the list as is, to refrain from injuring this area.
10. Dynamics and/or Theme. Again, I see some real hidden gems in the list, so a few tweeks while retaining its synergy and it will only get stronger... but at present I also see this area as being Good 0.8

Rating = 6.5/10
Others will rate it differently; but I see to many easy tweeks that would make this list much more than a "Fun" list... And at present it could preform above this level; but it would require some good tactics to do so.

Cheers
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 03:34:52 PM by moc065 »
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Offline azelexx

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 08:25:02 PM »
Thanks for the reply angelofdeath and moc065

Regarding Angel's comments:
I totally agree with you regards to how my army has its aggressive element, the best metaphor I could think of when play testing this list is "hounds on a leash". I'll keep annoying the enemy with range anti tank and infantry shots, perhaps even slowly advance my vehicles to get into shuriken cannon range. If enemy makes a desperate advance under pressure, my aggressive units will bite them back, HARD. Otherwise in the last turns, I'll unleash the hounds anyways and move my scoring units onto objectives so the enemy will have a tough choice deciding whether to commit to my strike force or my scoring units.

Guide seer I intend to guide and fortune warwalkers behind cover.

Fire dragon in falcon is because Falcon is much more durable at range, and that's what I intend to achieve for the better half of the game. Wave serpents in my experience gets taken down relatively easier when focused fired, thus fire dragon being an easy kill point, I'd keep them in Falcons until I HAVE to use them.

Seer council I agree I probably added too many spears, but they're there primarily to deal with deep strike or outflanking MC or heavy mechs like dreadnaughts appearing behind my army. I will play test a council with Yriel tonight, thanks for the suggestion.

Bikes are one of the cheaper scoring units for eldar. Sure I can take Guardians but they don't help with capturing far objectives... I just keep them as far as possible until last turn.

Everything sounds good on paper, but reality can often deviate so I'm still play testing. Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll try them out definitely.

Regards to moc065's comment (so far):
It seems the main issue you're pointing out is the weapon loadouts, in particular shuriken cannon? For the better part of the game (against most armies), I don't expect them to get within 24" very often, however it acts as a threat like "if you get close....4 cannons on top of everything else is waiting for you".

I will drop 2 spears as I agree with you and Angel, what do you think of taking Yriel instead of the farseer? (Yriel council lol)

I think Eldar scoring units have always been our bane. We either need to spend too many points protecting them while they do nothing, or they're just purely ineffective. I'll up my dire avenger count to a full squad of 10, so far my success with them is last turn drop them on enemy objective and bladestorming their scoring units.

I'm really looking forward to your rating and further tweak ideas.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 08:26:19 PM by azelexx »

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 10:53:00 PM »

"hounds on a leash". I'll keep annoying the enemy with range anti tank and infantry shots, perhaps even slowly advance my vehicles to get into shuriken cannon range. If enemy makes a desperate advance under pressure, my aggressive units will bite them back, HARD. Otherwise in the last turns, I'll unleash the hounds anyways and move my scoring units onto objectives so the enemy will have a tough choice deciding whether to commit to my strike force or my scoring units.

Guide seer I intend to guide and fortune warwalkers behind cover.

Fire dragon in falcon is because Falcon is much more durable at range, and that's what I intend to achieve for the better half of the game. Wave serpents in my experience gets taken down relatively easier when focused fired, thus fire dragon being an easy kill point, I'd keep them in Falcons until I HAVE to use them.

Seer council I agree I probably added too many spears, but they're there primarily to deal with deep strike or outflanking MC or heavy mechs like dreadnaughts appearing behind my army. I will play test a council with Yriel tonight, thanks for the suggestion.

I will drop 2 spears as I agree with you and Angel, what do you think of taking Yriel instead of the farseer? (Yriel council lol)


A very interesting idea the only problem is that Having those aggressive dogs on a leash doesn't give you much long range punch.  Shooty armies like guard or tau will be able to outshoot you with more weapons and harder hitting ones at that.  Plus a Daemon army can really put your plans to crap in a heartbeat with all their DS stuff.   Another army that will give you problems when they get really close are Plague Marines.   They are something you have to slow down right away because once they reach your line they are a royal pain to get out of it. 

I really think by keeping all your stuff back you are handicapping yourself.  I have played Fire dragons in a reserve role and held them back but I have learned that they work a bit better in a suicide role.  They take their hard targets out which either provide termies with with their ride to get closer to you or other big guns which can pound you from far...   bassies, Russes, defilers, hammerheads....  to name a few.  These are best to take out early on so they don't put the hurt down on your army.   

In my experience Eldar works better in an aggressive playstyle.  They don't have high enough strength, armor, or amount of guns to react to your opponent.  This and the fact that our stuff is based in a points cost of 4th edition really hurts us as we need to get the most out of our units usually the sooner the better.   Quick strikes that take down our opponents morale or cripple their offensive capabilites. 

Guideseers can work.  But war walkers get shaken easily.  Using them to guide much else...   I dunno it is kind of a waste of an HQ.

Fire Dragons in a Falcon work great in a defensive role...  Problem is that if the Falcon does get shot down (hard with a Falcon with holofields) then the fire dragons won't be able to be used to their maximum potential.  I really don't like FD in a defensive role.  I like to drop my opponents morale by crushing their prize armor or making their termies or nobs foot it early on.  Some players build their armies around certain armor pieces and once they get taken out especially early it can leave them in a state of shock. 

Yriel will make a council hit harder.. The problem with a council is usually amount of kills it makes.  Yriel helps this number a lot however most councils are going to get the return blow due to their low number of attacks (especially with a spear).  Without fortune you have a better chance of losing more warlocks or possibly even combat.  (plague marines can be nasty at this).  Yriel fills the gap and provides a few kills easily.  You could play a council without a farseer but the warlocks could suffer from it... especially if you are assaulting a unit with good armor save or decent numbers.  As far as dropping the farseer I would go with the guideseer and keep a doom/fortune seer with the council.   


Offline azelexx

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 01:08:05 AM »
Thanks for the comment again Angel,

The problem I see with a Farseer is that firstly I can't fortune the turn that I disembark and assault. Secondly, the turn that I assault, my opponents can target my Farseer and kill it easily since seer council isn't a Retinue. therefore I have two alternatives:
(1) Disembark the warlocks ONLY and hope they last to turn 2 so I can fortune them.
(2) Use Yriel instead and win combat.

Regards to positioning and outshooting, I think it kind of depends on the mission at hand. While Eldar isn't so durable overall and may not be the most shooty army, I've certainly found that keeping the army together (positioning wise) is very important until the last round objective grabbing. Spreading out usually doesn't help at all and suicidal fire dragon squads can be easily negated by staying away. Even if the dragons reach their target and blow it up, the risk and point value sometimes don't justify the attempt. A decent Dragon squad in wave serpent is easily a 200 point unit which people will, and can, take down fairly easily. Meanwhile whatever they're blowing up better be worth it. Thus the theory of my list is to keep everything intact and protected for as long as they can. Not a traditional way of playing I must admit.... still trying to adapt to it through play testing.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 01:18:43 AM »
The problem I see with a Farseer is that firstly I can't fortune the turn that I disembark and assault.

This is False. Fortune is cast at the start of your turn before anything else is done. Just because you're in a transport doesn't mean you can't use it. You can cast Fortune on the unit inside, or the transport itself. In this case, you can cast it on the council themselves, then disembark. Now you can't assault the turn you disembark after the transport has moved, but you can assault if the transport has not moved. What I do is fortune the serpent, boost out, then wait. My opponent will likely shoot the serpent, but with the rerollable cover save and the toughness of our transports anyway they will likely survive. At least enough to disembark my next turn. Next turn comes around, I council fortunes themselves then disembarks BEFORE the serpent moves, and can then shoot and assault.

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 03:14:34 AM »
Partninja got it right.   Exactly how they should be played.   Sometimes with a unit of shooty dire avengers to pepper their targets before the assault.   This is a strong tactic.  I use it often with my banshees as well as I put a doom/fortune seer with them. 


As far as the Fire Dragon unit goes..   their transport doesn't always get blasted... maybe about 30-50% of the time.  The fire dragons usually blast themselves in an explode result or fall to shooting in the next turn.  This really does two things though...
1).  takes out a target of oppertunity...   this can be HUGE... i don't know if you are seeing the big picture.   Think fully equipped Ork boss and Nobs kitted out, or Land Raider Crusader full of assault termies and a librarian in termie armor...  in an objective type game do you really want to deal with either of these in your deployment zone or near your objective.  Odds are that if either of these units hits your line it will make a good size mess of your plans...  If their land raider or battlewagon gets axed in turn 2..(which often happens) then this unit got to foot it and...  is exposed to tons of shooting that they regularly wouldn't be exposed to either that or are so slow they can pretty much be ignored by a fast moving army.   Result you just made about 500+ points virtually useless for your 80-200 pt investment.   

don't like option A)... what about option B)...  you have a Russ, vindictor, demolisher, defiler.. or other blasty ordinance dropping machine pounding your line.   Do you really want to have your infantry or anything else for that matter exposed to 2-5 turns of shooting from that?   If you silence it right away then any exposed infantry, warwalkers, bikes or what have you don't have to worry about getting blasted .   

2.) causes your opponent to react and change up his strategy.  Now they shoot at your FD and or WS that is in his zone or face what have you.  They just wasted another turn dedicating anti-infantry or if your lucky anti-armor stuff (at your wave serpant) at those units that just busted their prize tank.. part way out of revenge shooting or partway out of fear that it might destroy something else...   then I call this a bonus...
Fire Dragons objective was to take out armor...  I always send mine at the biggest threat ASAP.  They take it out.. my opponent wants to blast them.. oh well they have done their job already.   Let my opponent waste his shots, time or what have you they won't get their armor back and now just gave my other units time to position for their next crippling strike.   

You can use them how you described but the advantages of taking out some heavy armor sooner rather than later can easily make the game.  The main thing I have noticed in my games is that from that point on my opponent is reacting to what I do.  Which allows me to lead the game in the direction I want.   I also do this by baiting my opponent or using other nasty tricks.  Hurting your opponents morale or making them drastically change their plans can really hurt them.

It would be the same if you fielded a seer council and someone blew their transport on turn 2.   (a reason why I don't put all my eggs in one basket).  Winning for people who use uber units almost always depends on getting those units to where they can do the most damage.   Stop them from achieving this and you can beat most power builds.   

Offline Ezykill

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 05:51:14 AM »
the seer council will never get into combat with any smart mech army. unless its the turn the opponent commits to killing them, in which they will probably die. to boltguns.

The enemy will either kite them. Or just kill them. they can also just block the disembarkation point of the serpent.

Offline moc065

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 03:36:18 PM »
Rating done above... and I will return to give you a "tweek" suggestion list... but as my intent is to use what you have, I will need a bit of time to get it all in order.

PS.. I like the feel of the list, and the tactical concepts... so I will retain as much of that as I can when I offer the tweeks.

Cheers.
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Offline Adrastos

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 04:14:12 PM »
I would love to provide you with a rating as this list is indeed somewhat different than what we normally see. Unfortunately, at least at the current moment, my rating system remains incomplete and my time this week has been so completely taxed that I have not been able to take sufficient time to complete it.

That said, having looked over your list I wanted to propose a change in strategy and tactics as I see your list as somewhat similar to my own. While I see that you do not have 100 posts yet and thus cannot go to the Projects section, I am currently building a strategy called the "Rapier". This link goes to one of my own lists, developed recently, that utilize this rapier strategy and also self-critiques the list. If you read through the self-critique you should be able to find sufficient discussion of the Rapier strategy there to probably take use of it, or at least consider it. http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=194889.0

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Offline azelexx

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 09:33:33 PM »
Thanks for the rating moc065, I look forward to your tweaked version.

Adrastos, your analysis for your list is very thorough, i'd appreciate a similar analysis for my army too.

Offline moc065

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Re: Innovative Mechdar 1850 (Please Rate)
« Reply #12 on: February 1, 2010, 11:21:35 AM »
Suggestion for alteration of your initial list.

HQ:
Farseer (Fortune) 85
8x Warlocks (2x Destructor, Enhance, 2x Embolden, 2x Spears) 251
Wave Serpent (TL-BL, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 145

Farseer (Spirit Stone, Guide, Doom, Runes of Warding) 135

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers 60

10x Dire Avengers (Exarch, Twin Catapult, Bladestorm) 152
Wave Serpent (TL-BL, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) 145

6x Guardian Jetbikes; 2 Shuri-cannons 152

3x Guardian Jetbikes; 1 Shuri-cannon 76

Elites
6x Fire Dragons; Exarch w/ DBF 108

Heavy Support
Falcon (EML, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) 180

Falcon (EML, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) 180

3x War Walker Squadron (6x Scatter Lasers) 180

----------------
Total: 1849 point, 12 kill points, 4 scoring units.

I want you to take a close look at the AT potential added by altering the position of the EML's/BL's... also note that I added Shuri-cannons to the JB's and adjusted the squad size to give them something to do and a prayer to stay in the game (added range, etc. I also added a FD Exarch with H-flamer as the template does really help and takes nothing away from the squad. I reconfigured the Warlocks and 1 Farseer a bit and I would suggest that the lone Farseer go with the DA to add weight to their shooting, and retain added wound protection. The list would remain as a "rapier style" for tactics, and you use the early ranged shooting to set battlefield control for later actions. I still wouldn't see it as tournie winning (for a rating) but I was trying to retain the units/style you had while working in more potential winning options.

I do hope that helps you out. And feel free to ask the why/where questions if you have any.

Cheers
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