Topic: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion

[Gutstikk]

I expect wraiths are still going to be quite nice so long as you don't abuse them. When you need to do surgery, use a scalpel; when you need to pulp something, grab a hammer.

[Packetmaster]

I pick in the new dew and find that contrary to the elite section. Mostly everything is darn cheap. It good because there so much stuff to put in the army. That a good point for the fast attack section.

Personnaly I was really impress with the Tomb Blades and the scarabs. Nebuloscope and particule beamer in a unit of five tomb blades whould be amazing. Jet bike move and shooting small blast at unit than turbo boost to contest objective. They whould hug cover but with the jet bike rule that does slow them. That awesome, 5 blast every turn on the move.

[syth773]

I pick in the new dew and find that contrary to the elite section. Mostly everything is darn cheap. It good because there so much stuff to put in the army. That a good point for the fast attack section.

Personnaly I was really impress with the Tomb Blades and the scarabs. Nebuloscope and particule whip in a unit of five tomb blades whould be amazing. Jet bike move and shooting small blast at unit than turbo boost to contest objective. They whould hug cover but with the jet bike rule that does slow them. That awesome, 5 blast every turn on the move.

I think you mean particle beamer 
I agree they are a pretty good pick for their points, low initiative doesnt hurt much when you're zooming around the battlefield (come to think of it I think they are the only jetbikes necrons have).  I'm trying to judge if it is worth getting particle beamers (and maybe nebuloscope).  You can purchase 7 regular tomb blades for the same cost as 4 with the 2 upgrades.  Twinlinked tesla carbines are unlikely to miss, but they are also not the most effective weapons against much of anything (lack AP against MEQ troops, not quite enough strength (and lack of AP) to threaten vehicles, and not enough shots to do significant damage to swarms.
beamers are probably worth it, 5 points for 1 less inch scatter is questionable as to how worth it that is.

If anything they can be decent flying tarpits, T5 will allow them to tie up a normal squad quite nicely for a time.  wont be hard for them to reach just about anything with turboboost speed and cover save.

[bomatic3]

2 sets of 2 or 3 heavies. so good at trashing transports turn 1-2. making sure my enemy has to slogg it into my relentless warroirs pumping out death at everyturn.

and one squad of wraiths to assist my 2- ds flayed ones, and lychgaurd zooming in for more help. shoudl be really good with coils.

the scarabs are very tempting, but i thinnk it is going to play different than it seems. i think people are overly optomistic about the powers. so once we play a few games i will judge them again, but i am sceptical. i just think once the enemy has played them a few times, they will quickly get delt with and not me a factor, and because of the amount of s6 in the meta, they will be instant death magnets.

tomb blades seems ok, but they are a low point option. in Dark eldar i had trouble getting my bikes to do good wokr, i assume this will be the same, but games will decide what is effective vs what i can fit in.

[sephiroa]

tried the scarabs today, they munched a landraider turn 2,
scarabs are great, i love them

as for the wraiths, they killed a devastator squad turn 2 and managed to hold on 2 combat turns(his turn, mine turn) against 8 assault terminators and then got killed (they took 3 termi's)
the wraiths,, well with some decent rolls (and whip coils) you can really give some punch to some squads.

destroyers: got killed turn 1 (darn that stupid razorback and his search lights)

[Partninja]

At some point during my testing, I am going to run a squad of destroyers with three Heavy. Using Nemesor Zahn, giving them tank hunters will be QUITE enjoyable.

I have tried Wraiths and find a squad of 5 with coils too expensive for what they do. Maybe I just have bad luck with rends. For the points, I could add more shooting elements that would reliably do more damage for me.

[NecronCell2131]

 Tried Destroyers, Scarabs and Wraiths. Havent tried flayed ones or bikes yet.

 Destroyers basic squad of 5 against black templars. Killed marines in the open and forced those in cover to take 4+ saves all in all didnt make back their points but did well enough.

 Scarabs after last edition of never taking them im going to fit in a squad of 8-10 every game i can. These guys Have eaten two landraiders, dreadnaught, hellhound, and tied up incubi and marines for 2-3 turns.

 I dont know if i can do this but ive been using the monolith to warp both these guys and wraiths since it says any non vehicle necron unit and not units with necron name or a special rule. Until the Faq wont know for sure.

 Wraiths with 3 or 4 coil whips with a destroyer lord in the unit is great against marine squads or any non-terminator unit. Using the monolith to flit these guy around again going on the basis that the wording means any unit in the necron codex that is not a vehicle.

 Scarabs are win usually making back there points, destroyers are more situational, wraiths are what id rather spend 200 points on.

[Gutstikk]

You can teleport wraiths and scarabs via the monolith but they count as disembarking from a moving, non-open-topped vehicle. Meaning they pop out and then sit still (or run!) and can't charge. Not that great for assault specialists that want to get stuck in. THe monolith is mostly useful for shooting units and not so hot for those dependent on close combat.

[NightMoor]

At some point during my testing, I am going to run a squad of destroyers with three Heavy. Using Nemesor Zahn, giving them tank hunters will be QUITE enjoyable.

Did this recently and it was GOLD. Zahndrekh is quickly becoming my standard HQ choice for all lists these days.

[WilliamT]

Just finished reading the codex.  Thought on Fast Attack: Wraiths!!

1) Wraiths look good on paper: Rending & very good invulnerable save,  Buy the coils

2) Scarabs: use them for their psychological effects on MEQ players

[Kaiju Senso]

Had a test game with a larger squad of Wraiths (5 all with whip coils) and attached Destroyer Lord (with Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, and Weave). I have to say this squad was too powerful. The problem was it would wipe out the squad it assaulted then immediately got shot to pieces by the enemy. (specifically vindicators and defiler) First turn I assaulted and wiped out a Slaanesh winged Demon Prince (before it could even start beating it's own face in because of Mindshackle Scarabs), then lost 3 models from instant death. The next turn Assaulted the 2nd Slaanesh winged Demon Prince and even with only 2 Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord wiped it out before Mindshackle Scarabs could take effect. Because my Wraiths were now in the heart of the enemy army, he wasn't able to shoot the large blast weapons at me (due to hitting friendly models) so shot with whatever close range weapons were near (Killing another Wraith...) and assaulted with the Defiler. Due to my poor rolls the Destroyer Lord wasn't able to blow up the defiler and died from it's DCCW, the last Wraith falling to No Retreat!...

I'm adamant that if I wasn't rolling so many 1's for 3+ invulernable saves, the Wraiths could have kept sweeping the board after dealing with the 3 main close combat threats. Just for a comparison we decided to see if the Wraith wing could wipe out 8 Berserkers in one round of combat, which they did.

At this moment I'm thinking a squad of 4 Wraiths with Whip Coils attached to a Destroyer Lord is a good number, as long as you can keep them away from shooting. There should be enough damage output to kill most of the enemy and still get stuck in combat for the enemy's turn, then finish the squad off so you can assault again in your following turn. Without the Destroyer Lord, 5 Wraiths with Whip Coils should be sufficient to get the job done.

[Gutstikk]

That's good to know. I'm thinking of doing something similar because A) I have a destroyer lord B) it'll save the cost of a second command barge and C) Wraiths. The destroyer lord is nice because he can get to vehicles under his own power if needed as well, and can ride a night scythe for added hilarity.

How are the wraiths on their own? Not quite enough hitting power due to poor rends?

[Kaiju Senso]

I originally ran a unit of 3 Wraiths with Whip Coils in my first two games as Necrons and they didn't quite seem to cut it. They wrecked a vehicle no problem but was stuck in a combat with Dire Avengers and a Farseer for about 4 or 5 assault phases. Even with support from a very large unit of Scarabs. Against Chaos they were supported by a C'tan and managed to multi assault a dreadnought and demon prince, destroying the Dreadnought and getting stuck in with the Prince, then got assaulted by the other Prince and ended up finishing them both off (I think, that was my first game ever a month ago).

Instant Death is a big worry for Wraiths, especially if you end up rolling a lot of 1's and 2's for their save...At least they get a pretty darn good one though. New Precision dice are on my Christmas list...

[NightMoor]

I've found 4 Wraiths to be a bit of a magic number, as long as you don't waste them (put them needlessly into rapid fire range or get tied up fighting chaff) they have been very solid and consistent for me.

Personally I've stopped putting the Destroyer Lord with them because he only seems to slow them down at key moments (assaulting into cover) but I would gladly fly my Destroyer Lord alongside Wraiths in a unit of Praetorians to give the Prets res orb support when needed and occasionally jump out to join the Wraiths in a combat.

[Kaiju Senso]

I've found 4 Wraiths to be a bit of a magic number, as long as you don't waste them (put them needlessly into rapid fire range or get tied up fighting chaff) they have been very solid and consistent for me.

Personally I've stopped putting the Destroyer Lord with them because he only seems to slow them down at key moments (assaulting into cover) but I would gladly fly my Destroyer Lord alongside Wraiths in a unit of Praetorians to give the Prets res orb support when needed and occasionally jump out to join the Wraiths in a combat.

You can always detach the Destroyer Lord in the movement phase and Assault him separately into the unit in cover. He'll still go at I1 but the Wraiths would still get their normal initiative. As long as you get stuck in combat and don't have him by himself during the opponent's shooting phase, it doesn't matter if he's attached to the Wraiths on the turn you want to assault.

For the similar price of a Wraith or Praetorian, I don't quite see why you would want the Praetorian. Sure it has a gun but a lot less attacks, both are fearless, Wraiths have more wounds and an invulnerable save, and better strength. Downside is vulnerability to instant death though but you would lose the same number of Praetorian models to that one power fist wound anyway. Reanimation Protocols for the Praetorians is a nice little bonus but I prefer not to rely on it.

[Azonalanthious]

I really don't think you need whipcoils on every wraith, 2-3 per squad seems like it should be more then enough in almost any case.  Its not like you need to stop every single attack in order to be sure you get to strike -- at say WS4, S4, it takes 24 attack on average to kill a single one after all.  You've got some breathing space to let a few attacks through without worrying all THAT much, and given the large bases, with even some fairly minimal attention to position you should be able to hit more then one enemy base with some/all of your whipcoil models.

Beyond that, while its not something I would use in a friendly game, in a tournament setting that frees you up to pick up a the other two war gear options and leave one wraith naked, gives you 4 wound allocation points for the always popular/cheesy wound allocation tricks.

[NightMoor]

Kaiju you do realize what it means to be Fearless while having Reanimation Protocols right . Matt Ward was clearly so afraid of how broken that combo is he made sure it only exists on a single unit in the codex, that doesn't have an invulnerable save, and that can only have a Res Orb added (without slowing the unit down) by a character that has no invulnerable save himself. He also made darn sure Wraiths did not gain that combo...

Not saying everyone needs to start using Praetorians all of a sudden, just that I see very nice benefits to them. I think the right way for 90% of armies to run them, if they do, is going to be with Caster and Void Blade, that way they become as good against vehicles as Scarabs but while staying useful versus infantry and rock hard to actually kill, as compared to how easy Scarabs crumble away once they've done one action.

As for whip coils on Wraiths, I agree you don't necessarily need them on each Wraith, but I find it's still often useful as I tend to use my Wraiths as a support unit, so I will occasionally double charge into a combat where more of my units are already tied up; in these cases I want to have as much debuffing going on as possible. But if you're just taking a small squad of three or four, you could certainly go for wound allocation shenanigans.

[prot]

I don't know. At 1500 I've been fantastically disappointed in Praetorians.

At first I thought 'Great! Finally an answer to the deathstar.'

But they're so expensive, and initiative 2 is a killer. This is what makes Wraiths work. They're the only unit in the entire codex (aside from a C'tan I4) that has a chance of going first. That sucks. It's a huge hole to be in. It would be different if they were all carrying the equivalent of fists.

On the Fearless thing: In both my games I took so many wounds, that even though I didn't run, the 'extra wounds' caused the rest of the squad to die anyway. At one attack each (two rushing in) it's just not enough to offset the cost.

The Covenent Rod, or so I thought, would be their saving grace. But it wasn't... the problem is it IS great for shooting Terminator style Deathstars, but you often lose assault range as a result.

The Particle caster and Void Blade seems ok, but rending blows. The Entropic strike in CC is best for vehicles.... I don't like the idea of a non-power weapon, non-invulnerable save squad going against an uber character and hoping to get an Entropic Wound on him/it/her.

I am so frustrated with Praetorians, I am willing to rip the Covenent arms off and try something else. I don't know what, but at 200 points for 5, it's REALLY hard to make them work better than say.... Flayed Ones or Scarabs.

The thought of using them against vehicles is a neat idea, until you realize that scarabs do it better, faster, and cheaper.

But I haven't honestly tried Praetorians with Particle Casters and Void Blades. I'd love to hear from those that have. My big question would be, can 5 of them stand up to a deathstar? If not, I won't take them. I have enough mediocre close combat junk in my army as it is.

[NightMoor]

Prot, I will let you know how my trials and tribulations with Void Blade Praetorians go, I am converting up 10 in the next few weeks (have to wait for parts to arrive via eBay) from Warrior bodies and Praetorians limbs/weapons/heads. In my proxy games however a unit of 10 with Destroyer Lord (res orb) have been very solid as general threats. Then again I play in a very competitive environment where mechanized marine spam (razorbacks, predators, etc.) is highly prevalent so the Entropic Strike is extremely useful.

[Kaiju Senso]

I don't know. At 1500 I've been fantastically disappointed in Praetorians.

At first I thought 'Great! Finally an answer to the deathstar.'

But they're so expensive, and initiative 2 is a killer. This is what makes Wraiths work. They're the only unit in the entire codex (aside from a C'tan I4) that has a chance of going first. That sucks. It's a huge hole to be in. It would be different if they were all carrying the equivalent of fists.

On the Fearless thing: In both my games I took so many wounds, that even though I didn't run, the 'extra wounds' caused the rest of the squad to die anyway. At one attack each (two rushing in) it's just not enough to offset the cost.

This is exactly why I don't see Reanimation Protocols all that useful for Praetorians. If you decided to pay an obscene amount of points for a larger squad then yes it would be a lot more helpful. The problem is though that with a squad of about 5, you risk losing the entire squad before you even get a chance to roll for RP. Anyway this is all elites discussion so back to Wraiths!

I definitely want all Whip Coils on my Wraiths. I want to make sure every single attack (or as many as possible if up against a very large squad) gets to the enemy first at all times during the game. For example if one Wraith only has one wound remaining and the enemy gets one cheap shot in that I fail to save, you just lost 4 attacks and for the size of the squad, that dramatically reduces your close combat punch. Think of it as an insurance policy, like the Res Orb, and it isn't all that expensive.

Now I have to decide if I want two squads of Wraiths plus Scarabs or two squads of Scarabs plus Wraiths.