Topic: Interpreting Destroyer correctly...

[The Reborn]

Hi, I thought I had a handle on Destroyer until I played a guy yesterday and he raised a few questions during the game.

I hit a large unit of gaunts with a large blast (destroyer), and as my opponent had a Venomthrope nearby, he claimed his cover save.  However, he took cover saves against HITS rather than WOUNDS.  This makes a difference with D weapon since they are capable of being converted into extra wounds rather than 1.

I played on regardless, but please, who was right?

Also, if the unit of gaunts was hit, and you rolled on the d-table, and got say, a 4....would EACH gaunt get 2 wounds?

Lastly (and this came up too), I targeted and hit a group of 3 zoanthropes, all under the same blast, would I roll on the d-table for each one separately, or all three together...ie, a single d-table roll for effect of the whole blast?  I was unable to support my opinion yesterday as I could not find any reference either in the main rulebook or the Eldar codex.

Opinions please?  Thanks for any help.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

You are correct in that cover saves must be taken against wounds.  However, the one thing to keep in mind is that when a weapon does multiple wounds, it is done on a model by model basis.

So if you hit a bunch of one wound infantry, it doesn't matter how many extra wounds you do.  They are going to die either way, so there is no reason to roll.  If the venomthrope was hit by the weapon as well, then the extra wounds matter.

[The Reborn]

Thanks GML, but just to clear this up for me, if I hit 3 models with the same blast, do I only roll once on the d-table for the effect of the blast....OR, do I roll for each model separately?  It would make hitting 20 models a tedious business if you had to roll 20 times on the d-table.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Destroyer weapons follow all of the rules for shooting unless stated otherwise.  Is there anything in the rules that say that you roll once for multiple hits?  If not, then you roll them individually.  It 20 hits from a D weapon would be no different than 20 hits from any other weapon.

[The Reborn]

Cheers again GML, but this isn't answering my question...it's muddying up the pool if anything and it's my fault for not phrasing the questions correctly.  I'll have another go, if you can be kind enough to have a look again please?

If I shoot at a single unit of 20 gaunts and hit them, wouldn't I just need to roll ONCE on the destroyer table to obtain the effect of that particular blast, then apply this result to all of the gaunts that were hit?

If I covered TWO units with a large blast rather than one, would I roll just once for the effect of that single blast as before, or make a destroyer table roll for each unit hit?

The rules do not help solve this issue.  The Destroyer rules are quite vague.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

When you fire a Battle Cannon round at a unit of gaunts and score 20 hits, do you roll to wound once or 20 times?  Destroyer weapons work the same way.

The rule is actually quite clear in how it works, you may just be glossing over the key factor.

... roll on the table above instead of rolling to wound...

Emphasis mine.

So as I said, the rules for D weapons follow all of the rules for shooting unless stated otherwise.  Since the rules do not state that there is one roll to rule them all, you follow the standard procedure for multiple hits while referring to any changes required by the D weapon rule.

[The Reborn]

Riiight.

I'm not glossing though, just trying to understand how many times I need to roll on the D-table.

So you are saying that if I hit 20 gaunts, I roll 20 dice, referring the results to the D-table....
<Removed detailed description of Destroyer weapon table --- GML>

Further, the extra wounds will not roll over onto other creatures?

Hmmmm...my friend and I got that wrong then in our game. Bugger.

Is there any mention of who gets to decide where killing blow hits are allocated....ie, to that pesky multiwound character with the 3++ save at the front?

Thanks again GML.

[Grizzlykin]

well to me that would make sens that you have to do it the normal way, the man in the front take the hit if he dies, go to the next one, etc, etc

[Lord of Winter and War]

Normally with different wounds, the player making the attack decides the order in which different types of wounds need to be taken. So if there is a nasty character in the front, he can be forced to take the highest result first and then go onto the other wounds.

Removed reference to destroyer weapons chart.  --- GML

[Spectral Arbor]

I agree with the above. D-Weapon attacks are resolved individually for each hit caused.

Confusion might stem from the rules for Stomping [40k RB, pg 96] which also roll on a table. "For each unit that is stomped, roll on the Stomp table (see right) to determine what happens to it." Emphasis is mine. Since the most common source of D-Attacks thus far has been Knights, and their CC attacks roll on the two tables, it can be easy to mix them up.

So have fun in the era of Land Raiders eating it, as easily as an Ork Trukk.

[Fenris]

My interpretation is that if you hit 20 gaunts, each gaunt will roll on the destroyer table, once every gaunt has taken their saves against the hits, they receive extra wounds each. In the case of single wound models these extra wounds do not have to be rolled as the models are dead anyway.

If you hit multiwound models you will need to roll to to find out how many wounds are done separately for each model.

If a model has a rule that could save them from unsaved wounds like the FnP, they can still use them on each of these wounds, however both FnP and reanimation protocols are both specifically ignored by destroyer weapons so this may be a moot point.

Removed copyright.  --- GML

[Grizzlykin]

Taking save against hits does make sens to me you are supoded to be taking save for wound not for hit. Where did you find a rules that's said you can take wounds against hit. And i will look into it.

[Fenris]

Nope, not for Destroyer weapons. I found this under the special rules for destroyer weapons:
"Most Destroyer Weapons have AP1 or AP2, so armour saves are not typically allowed.
Cover saves and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled."

You do it in this order:
1. Roll to hit
2. Roll on the damage table
3. Allocate hits
4. Roll saves
5. Roll number of wounds suffered per model (this step is not needed for single wound model units)

I can see why people think D weapons are OP now if they assume those wounds will spread to the rest of the unit.

[Grizzlykin]

Well that's pretty strong eve  if not op

[The Reborn]

@Fenris...thanks for your input    You seem to be pretty confident Destroyer works the way you've described.  What you say seems to fit the wording pretty well too, yet I still have my doubts. It all seems long-winded and time-consuming....the opposite of what they seem to want from their rules these days.

GW are famous (or should it be infamous), for sloppy rules wording, and this might be another example.  It may be that they ought to have typed "wound" but actually used the word "hit"....

I would've appreciate an example in the rulebook personally, something unambiguous that clearly states how to use Destroyer.  Has anyone else got a different idea of how this might work? 

[Grizzlykin]

Well that might not be the most truthworthy soucre but I was watching a miniwargaming video and that's how they interpreted the rule as well. i mean the way fenris describes it, it's here.

[The Reborn]

Cheers for that, I'll take a look later.

Basically, I don't want to add insult to injury by playing destroyer the wrong way.  My friend plays Nids, and he's already a little pissed that my Eldar army has received so much destroyer love from GW....the last thing I want to do is put him off playing by getting the rule wrong when I use it.

[Grizzlykin]

well as stated you can save the hit that would have wounded, and then you roll the D3 roll if needed that as simple as this the 6 result to wound don't allow save though

[The Reborn]

@Grizzlykin....I got home, watched the link you posted.....cheers for that.  It does make things plain and easy.  Fenris was spot-on.

Cheers guys.