Topic: Riots in Paris

[Guildmage Aech]

I too must say that its actually quite impressive that there has been so little actual violence (less than half a dozen injuries and one guy dead I think). What happened is a shame oviously but its good that it hasn't turned into a bloodbath.

Bear in mind that the French Police are armed as standard, if they where as badly disiplined as some would have believe then surely some would have panicked and blasted some rioters away. Intead, hundreds are being arrested every night. The Guardarme are seriously hardcore but they're not ill disiplined.

Intragration is a really big deal. It seems that hegding them out too much with a hard line means that things boil up like this. But the other way isn't perfect either. For example; some parts of london have banned 'christmas' and butchers prevented from displaying pork in their shop windows to prevent Muslims being offended.

Its all very well Tony Blair saying that we won't let bombs change our way of life, but if whining off to the european human rights court works better then whats the difference in the end run of things?

If you'd asked me last week, I'd have said that the french where doing it right with banning religious symbols from schools and preserving the way they live. But lines blurr...

[Sheepz]

I too must say that its actually quite impressive that there has been so little actual violence (less than half a dozen injuries and one guy dead I think).


Uhhh, a guy died needlessly, 1300+ cars were torched, and two police were shot (Neck and Leg injuries, I heard). It's hardly an ideal strole in the park.

A theory I heard was they were tired of their quality of life and found excitement in fighting the police. Someone (besides the obvious dead guy) is gonna get killed soon enough.

Ah well, if ever there was a time for a Marxist revolution, now is the time. Trip to Paris, 'ey Commrades?

[chaos0xomega]

Incidentely, how many french-men does it take to defend Paris?



Answer: I don't know, its never been done before!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anyway, joking aside, someone said that they cant see the riots spreading to England, because they are much more "integrated". I would just like to point out that the British have an extremely large Muslim population(I think larger than france), and that there have been more terrorist attacks in England then in France. In addition, you guys got the chavs. They are more likely to start riots if they could organize a bit more then the poor immigrant french. Personally, I can see the riots spreading.

[Dux Aurelius Elysius]

I would have said that with things such as Positive Discrimination (which I gather isn't present in French law) the reasons for the riots in france has less merit when put in the terms of British culture.  That isn't to say it absolutely won't happen, but I think it to be much less likely.

Ah well, if ever there was a time for a Marxist revolution, now is the time. Trip to Paris, 'ey Commrades?

These are the french we're talking about.  They need a revolution every couple of hundred years, they just take it in their stride now.  Not to mention it's the only time they can honestly claim a victory.  It's civil war, whatever the outcome the French HAVE to win

[Captain Leonidas]

Ah well, if ever there was a time for a Marxist revolution, now is the time. Trip to Paris, 'ey Commrades?

The ideal is high, unfortunately I am a little...short.

Incidentely, how many french-men does it take to defend Paris?

Siege of Paris 1870. around a million men to keep the Germans at bay.

Finally Chirac promises a tougher put-downs. I have yet heard further news. Gonna turn on the radio later.

[Guildmage Aech]

Uhhh, a guy died needlessly, 1300+ cars were torched, and two police were shot (Neck and Leg injuries, I heard). It's hardly an ideal strole in the park.

*rolls eyes* I'm not a big fan of adding insultingly stupid qualifiers to things; if I pass someone a coffee I'm not going to tell them that it might be hot; I generally assume that if people can't manage that basic level of intelligence then they're not fit for modern society.

In the same vein I considered it somewhat unneeded to qualifiy the my previous statement with "considering the size of the riot." Oviously I don't think that its a pleasent evening past-time compared to sitting at home watching TV.

[Aesir Yggdrasil]

Incidentely, how many french-men does it take to defend Paris?

Answer: I don't know, its never been done before!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

FYI, it's been done a couple of times. For example, Germans only got there in the second world war, though they did try. The joke is hardly woth the seven 'HA' s, though 2 well placed 'ha' s might be in order...

Anywho, I'm alittle embarased to say that only the CBC has been providing any local press on this matter, with the newspapers being the conervative trash that they are glorifing the game on the weekend (Sure traqshing Edmonton is important, but I want real news damnit!). What's worse is that through political shinanigans, the NDP caused more of a stir by saying "We don't love the liberals no more" than the entirity of the Paris riots thus far.

[chaos0xomega]

Actually, in the Siege of Paris in 1870, the French lost. Read your history. In addition, Paris sustained more damage in the siege, then it has in any other conflict to date. WW2, the defence of Paris failed, as did the maginot lines. Although, in truth, prior to the battle of paris in 1814 I believe, no invading army had invaded Paris in 400 years, although this could just mean that the defenders in other areas failed.

[Aesir Yggdrasil]

I was referencing to the first world war.... As for WWII, their really wasn't much of a seige, as the Germans pretty much went around and waltzed through france willy nilly.

[Captain Leonidas]

Actually, in the Siege of Paris in 1870, the French lost. Read your history.

Ah yes, Franco-Prussian War 1870-71, my favorite history. French lost, no doubt, but the Germans didn't enter the city until the French capitulated and the Commune (and the Germans didnt actually tromped over Paris). That would still mean the French had the credit of defense.

The Siege
The German armies quickly reached Paris and were able to lay siege to the city on September 19, 1870. Governor of Paris and commander-in-chief of the city's defenses General Louis Jules Trochu made no initial effort to prevent the Prussians from besieging the city, but once the siege began the French gave a strong defense launching several sorties against the Prussian lines but were unable to break through. Upon hearing of the French surrender at Metz, French morale in Paris began to sink.
......
Eventually, Wilhelm I overruled Moltke and ordered the field-marshal to consult with Bismarck for all future operations. Bismarck immediately ordered the city to be bombarded heavy caliber Krupp siege guns, but the idea was overturned by von Blumenthal on the grounds that bombarding civilian targets would violate the rules of engagement. A starvation seige was ordered instead. The population began to suffer from starvation and with little hope of victory Trochu resigned as governor and left General Joseph Vinoy with 146,000 defenders to surrender on January 28, 1871.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Paris

Besides your joking claim was how many men could defend Paris, that Discounts political lost/win. And if you want a win, Aesir had laid it down correctly. Petain and his 'They shall not pass' maxim. That is why the worst casuality from WWI was suffered by the French, who are by no means 'Tremultuous O queers' like some Americans would like us to believe.

Anybody with an update of news ? The police that got shot is quite a horrible instance. Where did they get such guns in France ? I fear the underworld have a play here.

[Ace_of_Spades_13]

The reports I saw this morning on the attacks showed shotgun casings. Looks like the ambushers used huntings rifles/shotguns to do their shooting. Also, the French govt just called up the reserves in order to add more men onto the streets to help stop this. Hopefully this works but it looks like the rioters are just geting bolder and more violent.

The French put up quit a fight in both WW I/II but you have to admit when the French govt cut and run it really hurt their standing as a world class military. But, the Free French Regts and Air Force fought twice as hard to recover France from the Vichey and the Nazis. Man oh man did they ever tear up any Vichey forces they came across.

Now the French Foreign Legion...those guys are complete bad asses! I wouldn't mess with those guys period. The some of the baddest of the bad.

[Charon]

One of the original causes of the riots was France's integration policy, eventhough the riots seem to have moved away from that.

There are basically two main integration policies used in the EU assimilation and  the meltingpot.

The French use assimilation integration policies, basically when you immigrate to France you become French.
You loose your culture, because you're assumed to be French and your religion as France is a secular state.
You can still practise religion and try and maintain your culture mind you, but no attempts will be made to adapt society to it.
The French apparently don't even know exactly how big a part of their population consists of immigrants because of this.
This also means that you don't get any extra money spend on you as you're assumed to be a French citizen and not a "special case".

The UK for instance uses the melting pot integration policy.
You immigrate and are treated as someone who needs extra attention through extra schooling and housing.
You can keep your own culture, religion and bolt it onto the existing society.
New laws will eventually be passed to protect your heritage.

That's also a reason why the riots in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago never amounted to the scale of the Parisian riots, there are better lines of communication between the minorities and the state.
Because of this it was soon found that it was gangs responsible and they were dealt with quickly, mainly by community pressure groups.
Unlikely to happen in France though.

EDIT:

Just read an article on a Dutch newspaper website that the Chicago Sun-Times newspaper is under the impression that there is a Euro-Arab war raging across Europe 
Got to love American media naivity at times...

[Sheepz]

*rolls eyes* I'm not a big fan of adding insultingly stupid qualifiers to things; if I pass someone a coffee I'm not going to tell them that it might be hot; I generally assume that if people can't manage that basic level of intelligence then they're not fit for modern society.

Well perhaps you should add "stupid qualifiers" to things, as there are pleanty of stupid people on the internet. Yourself obviously excluded, but it wouldn't be a surprise to me if someone was to say something like...

I too must say that its actually quite impressive that there has been so little actual violence

...and be convinved everything was hunky dorey. As I've said, one man dead, 30 + police injured, two of them shot, and 1400 cars torched. I think thats pretty violent, myself, given the fact that the enitre thing was wholely unnecessary.

[Dark Exodus]

Actually, in the Siege of Paris in 1870, the French lost. Read your history. In addition, Paris sustained more damage in the siege, then it has in any other conflict to date. WW2, the defence of Paris failed, as did the maginot lines. Although, in truth, prior to the battle of paris in 1814 I believe, no invading army had invaded Paris in 400 years, although this could just mean that the defenders in other areas failed.

It's a good thing that the militarily incapable people of France didn't try and lend a massive hand to the Americans or try to take over Europe and nearly succeed... Heh

[AssasiNat]

well, the numbers on this board seem a little outdated, the British media claims that by yesterday the riots had spread to about 300 cities and towns, 5000 cars have been torched since the start of major riots and roughly 1000 arrests made, and 9500 police are being deployed from today.
Although unknown to most of the world (and the French) angry immigrants have been torching about 100 cars a night in protest for a long time before the riots started. But since the cars are owned mostly by the Islamic population (by the way France has the largest Islamic population in western Europe at 5 million) who live in the French suburbs, and thus of no consequence to the police or the authorities, until now that is.

[chaos0xomega]

You know what I really found ironic and amusing? France has been complaining about the American gov't passing laws that limit our freedoms and such in order to keep us safe from terrorism. As it turns out, France has been passing laws about curfews and other things that limit freedoms(cant find the link where I read this) of the citizenry of France. Kind of hypocritical isnt it...

[Guildmage Aech]

You know what I really found ironic and amusing? France has been complaining about the American gov't passing laws that limit our freedoms and such in order to keep us safe from terrorism. As it turns out, France has been passing laws about curfews and other things that limit freedoms(cant find the link where I read this) of the citizenry of France. Kind of hypocritical isnt it...

I don't recall them objecting to the US limiting the freedom of it's own people. I do remember that they objected to the US invading random countries on the basis that they don't like them much and then limiting the freedoms of someone else's people. Which is rather different if you think about it.

If you want ironic and amusing, you might want to consider the only western country that steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the greenhouse effect got hit by three hurricanes. You don't think thats amusing? But I thought you liked laughing about other people's misfortune...

[chaos0xomega]

Dont mean to go off topic, but you do know that a bunch of leading scientists have disproved the greenhouse effect about 4 or 5 weeks ago, right? And that they have found counter proof that the greenhouse effect doesnt exist. And that the greenhouse effect has become a largely questionable theory, right? And that the US has every right to not acknowledge the greenhouse effect because of this, right?

Besides, it's not like France is the only coutnry in the world that have suffered riots. The United States has had its fair share of riots. In fact, a lot of areas that were destroyed by riots, have yet to be rebuilt. New York, in the Yankee Stadium area, Las Angeles was pretty bad too. And lets not forget Newark during the 1960's. In thw words of one of my teachers, who lived one or two towns/ cities over from Newark, "I used to go out in July to play with my friends, and it was like it was snowing, only it was ashes that were falling, and there was a column of tanks rolling down the street..."

Also, can anyone explain to me what France hopes to accomplish by setting curfews? I mean, the people are rioting, and are already far beyond the extent of a law, what are the chances that they will obey curfew? In addition, I read an article in the paper, about how the police arrest rioters(mostly teenagers), keep them in a holding cell for a few hourse, and then bring them home to their parents, and that a lot of these teens go back out afterwards to continue rioting. Why would they do something this stupid(the police I mean)?

[TheOnlySpiral]

Dont mean to go off topic, but you do know that a bunch of leading scientists have disproved the greenhouse effect about 4 or 5 weeks ago, right? And that they have found counter proof that the greenhouse effect doesnt exist. And that the greenhouse effect has become a largely questionable theory, right? And that the US has every right to not acknowledge the greenhouse effect because of this, right?

Proof please!

Setting curfews means that they will be able to be a lot more sure of how deal with people on the treets.  They will not be law-abiding citzens and as such can be delt with.  Also it means that people who are just getting caught up in the mob will be more likely to stay in, reducing the number of "sheep" in the mob.

[Stormtrooper of the Dominion]

Quote from: Charon on Yesterday at 06:19:42 AM
I strongly believe the riots are nothing to do with the two guys that got electrocuted after being chased by the police any more.

   No, it was just the trigger. It is now about the way that these communities suffer, and they are now reacting violently to this.

Now I understand that there are underlying social factors and a lot of it has to do with just plain old french attitudes (my friend Franck and his attitude to the gypsies would be a fine example for one) but really now, at this point the rioting has got out of control.  I'm all for riots and looting in certain extreme cases (the american population raiding wal-marts in new orleans after the gov'ts incompetent ability to evacuate the population for one) but the government needs to step in and apply order! Its their job for christs sake!  These people may be unhappy with their conditions but there are other ways of going about it (organized and systematic strikes, non-violent means of disrupting society, formation of their own political party, etc), at this point they are criminals breaking the law.  Its time the gov't puts this down by ANY MEANS NECESSARY!  Give everyone rioting a one time offer to stop and receive a full amnesty by a certain day, and then if they do not decease invoke the War Measures Act (basically its what martial law is called in Canada, Pierre Elliot Trudeau invoked it in 1970 to deal with riots and terrorism at home, whatever the french call it is beyond me), send in the army and put this down.  Yes its a violent thing to do, will no doubt result in countless innocent deaths but the government has to restore order, make arrests and try the people who partake in this riot. 

Law and Order must be restored (although I may only take this opinion as I am in law school and intend to work as a crown prosecutor in canada haha)