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Author Topic: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix  (Read 2988 times)

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Offline murgel

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Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« on: July 22, 2017, 05:15:17 PM »
Hi all,

I wanted to collect some input on the four flyers. How you see them and maybe what your experience is so far.

Italic: I'tell on how GW/FW IMO intended them, then I shall put down my thoughts on the plane, if the supposed goal was achieved and what could(*)or should(-) be done IMO.

Crimson Hunter -> GW thought to make it the main AA unit in the Codex. Long range weapons good to hit chance and a nice punch in the armament against vehicles (the power against characters are simply a by product).
-> This is a so~so. I like the weapon mix and the option on the exarch to change a weapon. Also I like the re roll and the second re roll on the exarch is nice as well. Still the volume of fire is simply not high enough IMO to pose a viable threat to the enemy air force currently they are a nuisance.
- Both variants should have a 2+;3+;4+ to hit against targets with the fly keyword. This would increase the threat they pose to "serious" level.

Hemlock Wraithfighter -> GW thought to make it the main Air-to-ground support unit. Short range weapons but devastating against armour, still good against heavy infantry and an excellent support unit due to the mindshock pod and the pilot's smite.
-> this baby is an A-10, the fire power is heavy and the accuracy devastating.
Ok, you have to be close to the target but the durability of this thing is terrifying. It's a true close air support plane.
BUT - sadly the fire power is not restricted or even directed specifically against ground targets. Currently the plane is just as terrifying against air targets. If that were intended then there would have been no need for the CH so I presume the AA capabilities are an oversight.
* Personally I would make it slower 15-55,-35,-25
- The auto hit is ok against ground targets but it should be forced to make a regular to hit roll against targets with the fly keyword.

Nightwing interceptor -> FW wanted to make a really good AA platform with nice ground attack capabilities. The weapon mix (ShC & BLs) is effective against hard targets on the ground and in the air. The volume of fire can gnaw anything out of the sky or punish a light to medium infantry target.
-> FW has done a nice job and has almost archived that. Only the lacklustre performance of S6 kills the performance. The ideas are great and the Vector shift rule is very unique and fitting. The plane seems to fit right in between the ground attack plane Hemlock and the Air superiority fighter CH. And of course it is piloted not by an aspect warrior but a guardian resulting in a reduced accuracy but the CTM and the vector shift rule play very nicely with that.
The Nightwing is not as good as either Hunter or Hemlock in their playground but still a sufficient competition for both due to price and versatility. All in all a good pack of rules.
* Personally I would love to have the option of substituting the twin BLs for a single Phoenix pulse laser or even a twin one.

Phoenix bomber -> FW intended him to be a medium to heavy hitting ground attack plane. He as a good number of attacks against any type of infantry and also a very good punch against hard ground targets like tanks. This depends on the chosen load out however.
The long range keeps him save from return fire to some extend and a sturdy airframe ensures survivability.

-> Being heavier and slower then the Hemlock and significantly less accurate, despite a CTM,  is compensated by a very much increased range and more volume of fire, if the load out is chosen to be so. Ironically the Hemlock is tougher because of the spirit stone ability despite being less sturdy build. Again FW has IMO done a nice job on the Phoenix' rules.
* Personally I would love to see a few (2?) true missiles or bombs on this one.

Within the next few days I will be able to try out some of my air force, so I do hope.

sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 09:17:09 PM »
From experience:

Crimson Hunters are mediocre at best. Flimsy, prone to dying to 1st turn alpha strikes. Way too easy to knock down to half wounds, after which they become nearly useless.

Hemlocks are good solid choices, very efficient for their points but lacking in the anti-horde department, and therefore not efficient enough to abuse through spamming.

No experience with FW stuff.


Ok, you have to be close to the target but the durability of this thing is terrifying.

This is a huge exaggeration in my experience. There's nothing even nearly "terrifying"; rather, Hemlock does have a little something that deserves to be called "durability" - unlike Crimson Hunter, which pretty much doesn't have any durability at all (for its points).

Quote
- The auto hit is ok against ground targets but it should be forced to make a regular to hit roll against targets with the fly keyword.
I would agree with this only if ALL flamer-type weapons get the same treatment (which they won't). In my last game vs Space Wolves, my opponent shot down my 2 Hemlocks in 1 turn, the biggest part of damage was dealt by rapid-firing bolters and flamers.
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

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Offline Tweedz

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 09:55:49 PM »

Hemlocks are good solid choices, very efficient for their points but lacking in the anti-horde department, and therefore not efficient enough to abuse through spamming.



I would not be so sure. The 2nd place individual ATC list was 9 hemlocks.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 05:01:41 AM »
I would not be so sure. The 2nd place individual ATC list was 9 hemlocks.

Not sure how this could win against 120+ Razorwing Flocks with the total of like 850+ wounds :)
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 07:40:50 AM »
Sadly I don't find any of the Eldar flyers very intriguing at least for my style of army
building and play. It hurts when I own 2 Nightwings and a Crimson Hunter. The major thing for me is I can access their armaments (or match their offense) in other units, which are smaller, can be hidden out of LOS like Hornets, Jetbikes, Corsair Jetbikes etc. The only Eldar family flyers I find myself running are the Razorwing + Void Raven. They pack phenomenal firepower thats unique to them and are versatile to boot, all at cost efficient points. 

IMO I feel like GW+FW dropped the ball on the Eldar flyers. They should have been cheaper in points or give them "Harder to Hit" with their famed speed and agility.

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Offline Tweedz

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 09:46:49 AM »
Not sure how this could win against 120+ Razorwing Flocks with the total of like 850+ wounds :)

Oh I still think certain hordes are a counter, that was not what I was referring too (even the winner who used stormraven spam said razerwing spam was his hard counter). I was more mentioning that they are good enough to abuse with spam. In retrospect I should have just quoted that part of the phrase lol.

Offline murgel

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 10:38:05 AM »
Sadly I don't find any of the Eldar flyers very intriguing at least for my style of army
building and play. It hurts when I own 2 Nightwings and a Crimson Hunter. The major thing for me is I can access their armaments (or match their offense) in other units, which are smaller, can be hidden out of LOS like Hornets, Jetbikes, Corsair Jetbikes etc. The only Eldar family flyers I find myself running are the Razorwing + Void Raven. They pack phenomenal firepower thats unique to them and are versatile to boot, all at cost efficient points. 

IMO I feel like GW+FW dropped the ball on the Eldar flyers. They should have been cheaper in points or give them "Harder to Hit" with their famed speed and agility.

I do feel for you mate.
Due to having quite a few CWE models, even FW ones I have great difficulties selecting what I want to field. And quite often I get the feeling that I would want at least 2 of a specific units due to redundancy needs, BUT don't have the points to spare. I really hate this in small games which are non-narrative because it forces you to optimize for rules instead of optimizing for fluff. That is just me however.
Currently I'm sitting on my 4 Nightwings, 4 Phoenix and (as they are such new models 8)) a Hunter and a Hemlock with one more of those unbuild.

I would hate to have them stay in the boxes for another edition. Thus my inquiry for all of your input.
sure you have an opinion,
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Offline magenb

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2017, 05:39:15 PM »
Hemlock is the best value point wise. The fact that it really doesn't degrade when taking wounds is a serious bonus. Heavy weapons on fliers is meh, especially when they degrade. The fact that it is a Psyker is also a serious bonus. Had a game where a couple of 30 point psykers just destroyed a flier in a single turn.

FW did not really do Eldar any favours with their index, its all kind of lack luster and feels very rushed, the fliers have taken serious hits. Since GW is going full steam ahead with Codexes, I really hope the current FW index fades away as well, I really want to see some of the Corsair stuff come back with their better armour save.

IMO I feel like GW+FW dropped the ball on the Eldar flyers. They should have been cheaper in points or give them "Harder to Hit" with their famed speed and agility.

CWE get to turn twice to represent their Agility, just makes them sooo much easier to use.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 03:08:54 AM »
I'd even go as far as to say that Hemlocks now are crutches that help making CWE semi-playable on competitive level.

Thing is, a couple of Hemlocks have some dangerous damage output, and so your opponent is kind of forced to focus them early on - otherwise they'll cause him no end of trouble. But, the combination of being slightly more durable than an average vehicle and the fact that they practically don't degrade with damage taken makes them quite good at soaking up enemy fire. This is why they kind of tank for the whole army for the first 1-2 turns, effectively buying the rest of our fragile and overpriced units much needed time to still do something.

Without Hemlocks, CWE would've been 100% helpless against the 1st turn alpha-strike that they always receive when facing any decently optimised list from almost any other faction (and I'm not talking about crazy tournament spam-lists of late - just properly built all-comers lists created by experienced players). Pretty much all other units that we have are way too easy to cripple or destroy for their current point cost.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 03:16:42 AM by SeekingOne »
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline gangrel767

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 01:27:44 PM »
The nightwing does have hard to hit, and a 5++ save so, that's not bad.

Also, I was thinking about it and 2 Nightwings and 1 Phoenix is only slightly more expensive than 2 hemlocks (12 points)... not enough to make them amazing, but certainly enough to keep them in the conversation.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 05:08:54 PM »
The nightwing does have hard to hit, and a 5++ save so, that's not bad.

Also, I was thinking about it and 2 Nightwings and 1 Phoenix is only slightly more expensive than 2 hemlocks (12 points)... not enough to make them amazing, but certainly enough to keep them in the conversation.

Good point! Low price tags of FW flyers do seem to keep them competitive here, at least on paper. One other useful thing here is that 2 Nightwings and 1 Phoenix make a Flyer Wing which brings you an extra Command point for free, while 2 Hemlocks do not.
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline magenb

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 06:36:02 PM »
The nightwing does have hard to hit, and a 5++ save so, that's not bad.

Also, I was thinking about it and 2 Nightwings and 1 Phoenix is only slightly more expensive than 2 hemlocks (12 points)... not enough to make them amazing, but certainly enough to keep them in the conversation.

Except the long range heavy weapons get nerfed because you have to fire them at the closest unit to maintain accuracy. One thing I see happening at my local is cheap psykers sending mortal wounds after the Fliers, especially chaos, 30 point things doing D6 mortal Wounds... The Hemlock gives you a chance to stop that from happening, without having to take up a HQ slot.

Also watch out for the new flier rule, if you have no ground troops left, you have lost the game, so flier heavy army is rather risky.


It would be interesting to see if anyone is taking the Lynx with Sonic lance, it doesn't take up the flier slot, but does technically fly :) It would certainly remove a lot of infantry from the table...


« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 06:53:50 PM by magenb »

Offline haunt

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 07:18:27 PM »
Do the rules get over ridden if you're targeting flyers?
This is where Death rejoices, as he teaches the living.

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Offline gangrel767

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 01:04:23 PM »
I have taken the Lynx with Sonic Lance.... I'm a little "meh" on it right now. It's a lot of points and if you happen to roll poorly on the 3d6 rolls (which i manage to do constantly), then its not worth it. I need to try it a few more times, but i found it ended up getting murdered after blowing it's load on whatever target I found.

I would have loved to have it against the Orks last night though!
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Offline magenb

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 07:17:35 PM »
I have taken the Lynx with Sonic Lance.... I'm a little "meh" on it right now. It's a lot of points and if you happen to roll poorly on the 3d6 rolls (which i manage to do constantly), then its not worth it. I need to try it a few more times, but i found it ended up getting murdered after blowing it's load on whatever target I found.

I would have loved to have it against the Orks last night though!

Cheers, It's threat level is through the roof, so I'm guessing they fired everything at at? Did you take it at 1500 point list?

Offline gangrel767

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Re: Hemlock / Hunter / Nightwing / Phoenix
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 11:13:36 AM »
It was a 2000 point list.

I'm not saying it isn't worth the points or that it won't be devastating... just that I have had poor luck with it.

It was against Tau so that Forgeworld Flamer laden Riptide just ran up to it and burned it out of the sky... womp womp.

I'll try it again, but I have a hard time investing 300+ points in a single unit. Just feels like I'm asking my opponent to remove from the table for me. lol
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