News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Vyper Configuration.  (Read 782 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mortalis

  • Master of waste disposal
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 655
  • Country: au
  • For Gondor.
Vyper Configuration.
« on: January 31, 2010, 03:47:30 AM »
Hey there Eldarians!

I have been developing a Choas Eldar army recently; the Children of the Damned. Some of you may have seen its humble beginnings on the Modelling Forum;

http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=195809.0

I have aquired some Vypers and I was wondering if you Eldar Veterans had any suggestions upon their configuration.

Bearing in mind that the theme of the army is basically a heap of Jetbikes, a couple of squads mounted in Wave Serpents and a Fire Prism.

Pretty much if it flies, has good chaosy modelling potential, its in :D This is more about the modelling for me but I'd like to get a feel for how some of you guys play your Vypers.

So.

Squad size?

Weapons?

I have been leading towards Bright Lances as I may lack in a litte Anti Tank but the price is putting me off. So Shuri Cannons do look cool to continue the DAKKA DAKKA theme :)

Anyway enough rambling :)

Thanks in Advance,

~Morty TG

Offline Iram

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 253
  • Country: 00
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 04:26:54 AM »
I'm a little unsure about what you mean, is the army supposed to be (counts as) saim-hann? I'm thinking EML and shuriken cannon would be best as it has a bit of AT potential that will probably be needed as you say, it's also just a very good weapons configuration for the vyper in general.
... New Codex.

Offline Mortalis

  • Master of waste disposal
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 655
  • Country: au
  • For Gondor.
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 04:32:44 AM »
I hadn't really considered the Eldar Missle Launcher option, but it is much better than its Marine compatriot so it could be worth a look into.

It isn't a counts as Siem Hann I have rewritten the Eldar Codex by hand but renamed every unit and upgrade to something suitably Chaosy to reflect the theme.

As for the Jet Bike and flying theme, that is merely to do with the fluff of my Farseer's (or Sorcerer's) background.

But it will be a mounted list which is similar to Siem Hann.

~Morty TG

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11483
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 07:58:23 AM »
Brightlances on Vypers are not a good choice in my view at all, since they are far too inaccurate, and cost too many points.

As for the other weapon options, there are several schools of thought:


Shuriken Cannon: This has the advantage of keeping the Vyper cheap, and is pretty handy for anti-infantry duty, and blowing up vehicles with weak rear armour.  The problem is you have to get within rapid-fire range to be able to use it, and this can be dangerous for Vypers, as their fragility means that even mass Bolter fire can damage them.  If you are fielding a lot of Jetbikes and Vypers, and you want to be aggressive with them, then this armament is probably okay, but if you are looking for more of a fire support role from the Vyper, then this is not the best choice in my view.

Scatter Laser: This is identical in terms of its use to the Shuriken Cannon, but has the advantage of a longer range, allowing it to keep out of the way of those pesky rapid fire weapons.  It is also still quite cheap, so if you have the points, it's probably a better bet than the Shuriken Cannon.

Starcannon: This is not a cheap option, and the Starcannon suffers from the improvements to cover save in fifth edition, although, when mounted on a skimmer, you can try to manoeuvre in such a way as to expose units to its firepower from angles whereby they are not protected by cover.  This is, however, rather fiddly, and can expose the Vyper to too much return fire if you are not careful, so I do not recommend taking this weapon, unless you know you are going to face Deathwing, or an army list chock full of Terminators.

EML: The greatest advantage of this weapon is its range.  If you want a Vyper which can hang back and provide long range fire support, then this is the option to go for.  That said, it's horribly inaccurate, and it isn't that cheap, so there will be games where you may find that your Vypers do not achieve that much as a result.  It's an unreliable choice in my view, but it may appeal to you if you are looking for support fire

Shuriken Cannon upgrade: This can be useful when combined with the EML firing Plasma Missiles if you want your Vyper to focus on anti-infantry duty.  The problem, however, is that you have to get within rapid-fire range to make the most of this additional firepower (see earlier comments about the downsides to this).  I don't recommend taking this upgrade with any other weapons, due to the defensive weapon rules.

I hope that helps.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 08:00:22 AM by Irisado »
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Serin / Grieva

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Country: gb
  • "We move, as the winds blow"- Tiamait - Saim Hann
  • Armies: CW Eldar, D Eldar, WHFB Slaanesh Daemons
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 09:00:08 AM »
You don't need to get in "rapid fire range" with the shuriken cannon it has a range of 24". It is a perfectly valid option and is 3 times cheaper than the scatter laser. Range helps but you can get double cannons for the same price as a scatter laser vyper, giving you 2 extra shots, and superior AP, good for catching any unlucky light infantry off guard like orks and the like. Though you can simply give the scatter laser a cannon also giving a tasty 7 shots, you're wasting the range that it has, so its more for redundancy rather than using both weapons.

The ones I would consider are

Dbl ShurCannons
or
EML + ShurCannon

Double cannons works well with guide also, the EML + shurcannons aren't too bad with Doom either.

I'm still making the choice between the 2 configurations as to which will play the best, but I'm taking EML + shurCannons just for a conversion I want to do.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 09:05:00 AM by Grieva »

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11483
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 09:14:21 AM »
You don't need to get in "rapid fire range" with the shuriken cannon

You misunderstand my definition of rapid fire.  The maximum range of rapid-fire weapons is the same as that of the Shuriken Cannon, and it only takes ten Bolter shots, or the odd Plasma Gun, to potentially cause a Vyper problems, that was my point.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Serin / Grieva

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Country: gb
  • "We move, as the winds blow"- Tiamait - Saim Hann
  • Armies: CW Eldar, D Eldar, WHFB Slaanesh Daemons
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 09:41:23 AM »
ah you're talking about light weapons fire then, rather than rapid fire range. Vypers are more durable than they look, remember it is 6s to glance them with bolters, and lets say the typical marine squad does shoot them with 7 bolters, 1 or 2 will miss and maybe 1 will get a glancing hit, if placed right you are probably getting a cover save, and if they get past that they will still need to get a 5+ to destroy a Vyper in your squadron. Medium to heavy weapons fire is needed in my books, Of course as you said, the marins could have a odd plasma gun or even a missile launcher / plasma cannon, but its still not the easiest thing to pull off.

Cover plays a huge roll now in 5th edition. I think we Eldar players just have to learn to get those Vypers (which when you think about it are actually quite a small vehicle) behind cover or other units like jetbikes. That 4+ cover save can save them more than one might think.

Offline Pockets

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 70
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 12:03:56 PM »
maybe 1 will get a glancing hit, if placed right you are probably getting a cover save, and if they get past that they will still need to get a 5+ to destroy a Vyper in your squadron.

Actually, because of squadron rules, you will need a 4+, and only 7 bolter shots with no heavy or special weapons?

Anyhoo, double ShuriCannons have worked rather effectively for me, I usually reserved them to make up for their low AV, and they came in turbo-boosting, then they err... shot the next turn. It helped againt low AV tanks, MC's and even his infantry.
Finally started painting my eldar! Got almost all but the seer council and walkers done with.

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »
Here is a link to an article I put together about Vypers, it can answer a lot of questions for you.

Here are my preferred configs... and I do recomment that you use pins of magnets on the weapons so they can be swapped around later if you like.

EML / Shuri-cannon (1-3) vypers as singles or as a squad.
Scatter / Shuri-cannon (1-3) vypers as singles or as a squad.
BL /  Shuri-cannon (2) vypers as a minimum, and as a squad.
Dual Shuri-cannon (1) vyper as a cheap addition at the end of a squad of army list.
Star / Shuri-cannon (2-3) vypers as a squad, but only if your running 2-3 squads as the mass shooting adds up and the AP does help vs many opponents.

Cheers
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

Offline Mortalis

  • Master of waste disposal
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 655
  • Country: au
  • For Gondor.
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 03:39:57 PM »
Thanks for the great response guys :)

That was seriously informative, this Eldar forum is quite loverly.

At the moment I'm tossing up between EML/SC and Dual SC.

I really do like the idea of a sqaud of 2 Vypers both with Dual, as this fits with the rest of my army (being Jetbikes I have a LOT of SC)

Thats so much for your detailed analysis Irisado, was insightful. On your point about the SC, I don't particularly mind that the 24" range will bring them in range of Rapid Fire weapons as the tactics of ym army are all about the mounted squads working in tandem, so there will be lots of units flying in and shooting at that range :)

Well thanks guys I gotta bail for school, I'll pout photos of the Vypers up, and my final verdict in the future :)

Oh and Moc really great likn thanks mate :D

~Morty TG

Offline Serin / Grieva

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 804
  • Country: gb
  • "We move, as the winds blow"- Tiamait - Saim Hann
  • Armies: CW Eldar, D Eldar, WHFB Slaanesh Daemons
Re: Vyper Configuration.
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 03:55:25 PM »

Actually, because of squadron rules, you will need a 4+, and only 7 bolter shots with no heavy or special weapons?


you are forgetting the -1 to the damage roll from a glancing hit, making that 4+ a 5+ instead.

I did go on to mention heavier weapon fire also.

 


Powered by EzPortal