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Author Topic: Margaret Thatcher GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE  (Read 14160 times)

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Offline Benis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #20 on: April 8, 2013, 05:56:00 PM »
Apropos Chuckles' and Killing Time's links, my brother posted this one on facebook: 21 Incredibly Angry Songs About Margaret Thatcher

Quite fun although not all of them have much quality beyond this context if you ask me.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #21 on: April 8, 2013, 06:11:33 PM »
I never said that you should change your tune and start liking her actions or her policies, but dancing on someones grave just because you didn't like the work they did?

If you are so adamant in your joy that an 87 year old woman is dead, next time put a gun in your hand and kill the be-atch yourself.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #22 on: April 8, 2013, 06:50:44 PM »
Celebrating someones death is a dispixable act, regardless of who they are.  Be it a former leader of a nation or a criminal.  Part of the reason why I am against execution in ever instance, but that is another matter.

Death penalty discussion is for another topic.  Keep it out of here.

Ahem...

So yes, the death of certain individuals can lead to a sense of closure, and can be the cause of celebration. I've my own axe to grind with Mr Mike Harris, former premier of Ontario. I'll be glad to outlive him, and will probably open a bottle of the expensive stuff on the day he kicks it.

George Bush's anti-birthday will probably be an unofficial holiday in many parts of the States.

Respect is not due to all entities born of human parents. There are entities that, though their actions and words cease to be "Human" and enter the realm of "Monster." I can't speak to Mrs Thatcher, her life has had no meaningful impact upon my own. If someone feels that her actions have destroyed more lives than any good she has brought, then I join in celebrating her demise.

How could a person not be happy, to see the end of one whom spent their life destroying others?

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #23 on: April 8, 2013, 07:27:46 PM »
At risk of Godwin-ing this conversation, i'd have to disagree with you GreatBigTree. No matter how despicable a person was in life, the celebration of their death is still unacceptable. Dancing on a certain German's grave (a little past due, of course) does nothing to change what happened, and serves only to degrade yourself. You don't go digging up bodies to slap them in the face just because you didn't agree with them.

Commuting an unethical act to an unethical person doesn't suddenly make your poor decision better. And this isn't anything so extreme as that. So no, it's not acceptable.
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #24 on: April 8, 2013, 07:31:37 PM »
Good riddance to the strident cleric of corporatism, she who masqueraded as a friend of peace and the workers who in actuality was the hand maiden of war and slavery.  She tutored Reagan in the ways of saying what people want and putting them in chains.  If hell exists, to hell with her, forever and ever, just as she consigned millions of the hardest working people on the planet to endless toil and shame.

She labelled those who are "makers" as "takers" long before Romney and his shameless ilk entered politics, stealing from the workers and sending it to the money managers and shysters.

Quickly, drive a stake into her chest before she rises again, just like we had to do with Reagan!

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #25 on: April 8, 2013, 07:42:08 PM »
[gmod]A reminder to keep it civil or you will all be send to bed without any dessert. Why hasn't anyone quoted Frankie Boyle so far?[/gmod]
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #26 on: April 8, 2013, 08:30:23 PM »
There are entities that, though their actions and words cease to be "Human" and enter the realm of "Monster." I can't speak to Mrs Thatcher, her life has had no meaningful impact upon my own. If someone feels that her actions have destroyed more lives than any good she has brought, then I join in celebrating her demise.

How could a person not be happy, to see the end of one whom spent their life destroying others?
Evil is in the eye of the beholder.  There were some truly monstrous people through out history who have literally destroyed people.  Not just their lives or jobs, but the human being themself.  You make it sound that Mrs. Thatcher deserves to be enshrine in the halls of history next to men like Adolf Hitler and Vlad the Impaler.

So where does the line get drawn though?  By the way you phrase it, Dwight D. Eisenhower can be considered a monster because on his word and his action, hundreds of thousands of people died during the invasion of Europe.  The Duke of Wellington is a monster because tens of thousands of men were killed and wounded at the Battle of Waterloo on his word and on his actions. 

Are you going to go dance on their graves now as well?

You might not have liked her policies, they may have had huge negative effects to the population of Britain.  But rejoicing in the death of someone who hasn't been in office for over 20 years is a bit extreme.

Oh, and GBT, I went through the amphetamine parrot that was Mike Harris, and I despise the man for what he did to Ontario.  It is because of him I will never vote for the Conservative Party at any level of Government.  But at no point will I ever say "I am glad the son of a be-atch is dead, and I am going to dance a jig."

Because even though he is a despicable person, everyone deserves a modicum of respect, regardless of their station in life.

Can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies from you then?  I mean he must be worse than a common criminal.  Because of his actions over 50,000 have died since 2003.
Maybe if he had died 10 years ago, but now it sooner like to see him in front of the International Court of Justice, not that i (or he) will ever life to see it.
And if he dies in 2030?  Will you be glad he is dead 21 years after he has had any form of authority?

The way I look at all the hate for Margaret Thatcher is if she was so bad, why the beslubber did the British people re-elect her twice?  She must have done something they liked.  Or was the United Kingdom a police state to the extent that it forced its people to vote a specific way to keep her in office?
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #27 on: April 8, 2013, 08:45:40 PM »
At risk of Godwin-ing this conversation, i'd have to disagree with you GreatBigTree. No matter how despicable a person was in life, the celebration of their death is still unacceptable. Dancing on a certain German's grave (a little past due, of course) does nothing to change what happened, and serves only to degrade yourself. You don't go digging up bodies to slap them in the face just because you didn't agree with them.

Commuting an unethical act to an unethical person doesn't suddenly make your poor decision better. And this isn't anything so extreme as that. So no, it's not acceptable.

Well, I guess I'd have to ask if you believe that "good and evil" just ideas / perspectives, or if you believe that "Good and Evil" are two forces in the universe that are influenced by the actions of sentient beings?

I happen to believe that there is such a thing as "Good." Most religions seek to increase it, most positive philosophies seek to increase it, most societies seek to increase it, many people seek to increase it. For me, Good is a tangible thing, that can't be measured, but felt. Like the way you can tell a room gets hotter or colder without needing a thermometer, you can just feel it.

If a person believes that another has been increasing Evil, through the suffering they've caused, or other methods of increasing the Evil of the world, then rejoicing in Evil overcome [in this case, through outliving...] is natural, and life affirming. I bear Mrs Thatcher no personal ill will, I've never met her and I'm unaware of any actions she's taken that have harmed me or mine in any way. She seems to have done so to the people in Brittain, though, so to those that outlived her, may you rise above that harm.

To deny or hamper the joy of someone that has endured hardship, and outlasted it's source seems... hmmm... like something that is outside of the denier's scope of influence. I'm not really sure how to express that in a more clear fashion. If someone has wronged you, it is just to seek compensation. In this case, no one harmed by the actions of a powerful public figure will ever see direct compensation for the harm. Taking pleasure in seeing the source of one's pain put underground is a natural extension of the human notion of revenge / punishment, which are [small?] parts of the notion of justice.

There are a few people that I've known, whom cause misery and pain to those they "love". I'm fortunate in that this is not the case for myself, but I have friends and aquiantences for whom I'd celebrate the death of those that harm them. I would not see that as degrading myself. I would see that as celebrating the end of an Evil person, and the potential for the harmed to heal, increasing the Good in the universe.

*shrug* Maybe it is something you need to see from the bottom, to understand the opinion.


PS: Of course Evil is in the eye of the beholder. I draw my line here, Jack draws his line there, and Jill draws her line inbetween. My line is where I feel it should be. I can make judgments on a case by case basis, because I'm an intelligent and mostly rational creature. Everyone has their reasons, and if Mrs Thatcher, or anyone, winds up on the other side of the line, then joy to the survivor. Life is for the living.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2013, 08:54:43 PM by GreatBigTree »

Offline Sheepz

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #28 on: April 8, 2013, 09:05:44 PM »
I dont care about people who accuse me of bad ethics or whatever. She was a bad, bad person who's policies sociologists attribute to many of today's problems. She is dead, and we are better for it. No matter how long shes being out of office it means she wont spend another day living off the benefits of a state she treated with contempt, paid for by the very people she screwed over. If people want to think less of me for that, I don't care. Ill reiterate. She is dead. We are better. I hope she suffered for what she did to my grandfathers hometown, and all the rest of em poor souls. I'm now going to continue to drink heavily and laugh hysterically. If that's in bad taste, spare a thought for the graves she pissed on.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #29 on: April 8, 2013, 10:01:32 PM »
And how are the British people better from her death?  Do they receive any direct benefit from her passing?  Are their taxes going to drop any now that they don't have to support her?  Why are you better now?  What changes from this, if anything?  Is your life going to miraculously get better because an old woman had a stroke and died?
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Sheepz

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #30 on: April 8, 2013, 10:20:58 PM »
Well the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands paid to her annually can get spent of something else. Plus theres the boost to the British economy on a whole made by people spending money on booze and party food to celebrate her death. Bridges will be built between sundered families reunited by their ferocious joy at her demise. The shambling revenants of those killed by her social, economic and foreign policies may finally be laid to rest. Creatures can return to the forest. The weather has definately gotten warmer. Don't be a pessimist.  Lets turn that frown upside down. Can you tell me how I'm not better off for the loss of an old woman?
« Last Edit: April 8, 2013, 10:22:44 PM by Sheepz »

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #31 on: April 8, 2013, 10:41:00 PM »
Well the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands paid to her annually can get spent of something else.
If I heard right, it is getting shifted to paying the Royal Family instead.

Plus theres the boost to the British economy on a whole made by people spending money on booze and party food to celebrate her death.
So Brits are getting hammered?  And this is different how?

Bridges will be built between sundered families reunited by their ferocious joy at her demise.
If they are being reunited by the joy in her demise, wouldn't they have been united in their hate for her?

The shambling revenants of those killed by her social, economic and foreign policies may finally be laid to rest.
You may wish to consult a priest if that is a problem you lot are having.  And possibly consider renaming your country "Zombie-land!"

Can you tell me how I'm not better off for the loss of an old woman?
Does her death put more money in your pocket or more food on your table?  Does her death keep your lights on or the water running?  Will her death affect the cost of gas?  Does her dying ensure you have a job tomorrow?  Does her dying ensure your family can live in the belief that tomorrow they won't be sold into slavery?

Please, name one way someone will actually benefit in a way that will completely change the course of their life from her death beyond this "closure" bullamphetamine parrot.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #32 on: April 9, 2013, 12:10:07 AM »
It's curious that without her policies few of the haters would have been in a society where they can study politics in university in order to hate her so much, you'd be busy mining coal!

Britain was actually a pretty amphetamine parrot place in the 70s, mostly digging up coal, sitting in the dark during electric rationing and building the most amphetamine parrot cars known to the western world (on the rare occasion that the British leyland workers actually stopped being on strike long enough to make them!).

She broke the crippling power of the greedy selfish unions, invented Mr Whippy icecream, created a much more socially mobile society where you don't have to live in your dads village and do his job when you're old enough. I don't want to work in a coal mine (if it wasnt for the strike Billy Elliot wouldn't have gone to London to follow his dream to the ballet!). And she didn't tell blatent lies which is pretty admirable for a politician.

No, she wasn't perfect but neither did she do everything for the sake of evil. Reform was required and she took no half measures.
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #33 on: April 9, 2013, 01:50:38 AM »
I live in the North West of England, a Scouser born and bred. I just have to look at the urban decay around me to see the legacy of Mrs. Thatcher's policies. I'm not a fan of most of what she did, but celebrating the death of another human being is undignified and dehumanising.

She was in charge when we needed a Cold War leader, if the likes of Cameron or Blair had been in charge the Soviets may have tried Blitzkrieg rather than Perestroika. I'd sooner be poor and (sort of) free than a communist. Ugh! Just the thought of it...  8)

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #34 on: April 9, 2013, 05:59:26 AM »
If you are so adamant in your joy that an 87 year old woman is dead, next time put a gun in your hand and kill the be-atch yourself.

Such a ludicrous straw man argument.
If you want to equate this with murder then go ahead. I'm not biting.


The way I look at all the hate for Margaret Thatcher is if she was so bad, why the beslubber did the British people re-elect her twice?  She must have done something they liked.  Or was the United Kingdom a police state to the extent that it forced its people to vote a specific way to keep her in office?

As you'll have noted from other people's posts she was a very polarising figure.
Some people loved her, others hated her. Because of the way the UK electoral system works, and the shambles that was the Labour party in the 70s and 80s, it is not surprising she stayed in power for so long.


It's curious that without her policies few of the haters would have been in a society where they can study politics in university in order to hate her so much, you'd be busy mining coal!

Britain was actually a pretty amphetamine parrot place in the 70s, mostly digging up coal, sitting in the dark during electric rationing and building the most amphetamine parrot cars known to the western world (on the rare occasion that the British leyland workers actually stopped being on strike long enough to make them!).

She broke the crippling power of the greedy selfish unions, invented Mr Whippy icecream, created a much more socially mobile society where you don't have to live in your dads village and do his job when you're old enough. I don't want to work in a coal mine (if it wasnt for the strike Billy Elliot wouldn't have gone to London to follow his dream to the ballet!). And she didn't tell blatent lies which is pretty admirable for a politician.

No, she wasn't perfect but neither did she do everything for the sake of evil. Reform was required and she took no half measures.

This is the counter argument and as long as you don't mind overlooking the crippling damage she did to communities which still haven't recovered, or the very fact that the free market policies she set in motion are directly responsible for the worst recession of the modern era then they're all perfectly valid.
Some people liken her actions to a stern parent ripping off a band-aid. Painful but necessary.
Others would rather say she tore the stitches out of a festering wound, amputated the limb without an anaesthetic, and then told the patient they had to pay for their own wheelchair while stealing their wallet.

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #35 on: April 9, 2013, 06:19:44 AM »
I think that it's important to separate the person, and policy.  One of the things that I have learnt over the years is that hating people doesn't work, and is counter productive.  I don't think it does anyone any good to hate Thatcher.  It's far less destructive to critique policy than it is to attack her as a person.

The idea that somehow her policies gave us greater social mobility by taking on the miners as she did strikes me as a curious conclusion to come to.  Certainly as someone who grew up in southern England, I don't see it that way, and the consequences in the north of Thatcher's social policy can still clearly be seen today.  The trouble is, furthermore, that her social policies were, more or less, seen through to their conclusion by Tony Blair, so she remained divisive even when she was no longer in power, owing to the influence her approach continued to have on contemporary British politics.

The problems I have are that we continue to unquestioningly follow this neo-liberal trade model at a time when the whole banking crisis should be making politicians think about regulating the sector more tightly.  This deregulation was one of Thatcher's most favoured policies.  The idea that the state should be removed from pretty much everything.  I just cannot go along with that philosophy.  We've had so much privatisation in the UK since the 1980s for so little (if any) improvement, and everything now revolves around a commercial business model, which is harmful to health and education in particular.

Then, there's Europe.  The Conservative Party, never a party I would vote for anyway, but even less so when it starts destroying itself over Europe.  It was Thatcher's nightmare policy (to paraphrase Geoffrey Howe) on Europe which really did place this country in a perilous position internationally.  Regardless of what she, and other eurosceptic Tories, might have argued, the UK is nothing on the international stage without its European allies, and to treat them in such a disrespectful, and bullying manner was, in my view, a terrible foreign policy for the UK.

In essence, what I'm saying is that it's far better to critique policy, rather than to go down this whole path of hate/not hate.

Edit: Regarding her election victories, to have a stab at answering GML's question, these were partially aided by two factors: In 1983, she received a Falklands bounce from the electorate, and Michael Foot's Labour Party were so poor as an opposition party, that they couldn't credibly be elected.  In 1987, Labour was still not electable, owing to its policies being too far from the so called centre ground, and the fact that some of its vote ended up going to the SDP (a party founded by former Labour members).
« Last Edit: April 9, 2013, 06:24:41 AM by Irisado »
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #36 on: April 9, 2013, 07:06:05 AM »
I found these funny pieces that might improve the mood in this thread a bit  ;D

“How should we honour her? Let’s privatise her funeral. Put it out to competitive tender and accept the cheapest bid. It’s what she would have wanted.” - Ken Loach

A bit of Fry and Laurie - On Margaret Thatcher
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #37 on: April 9, 2013, 08:09:57 AM »
The Grim Dark milieu of 40k would not have been created without Thatcherism.

In that respect at least, everyone who has enjoyed the background fluff elements of warhammer 40k owes her a debt.

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #38 on: April 9, 2013, 08:38:46 AM »
An interesting point. Though it's worth noting that (according to wikipedia at any rate), WFB came out of Reaper, which was first published in the late 70s. That doesn't mean Maggie and her style of governance didn't have an impact on Warhammer's formation though
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #39 on: April 9, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »
Can we expect the same reaction when Bush dies from you then?  I mean he must be worse than a common criminal.  Because of his actions over 50,000 have died since 2003.
Maybe if he had died 10 years ago, but now it sooner like to see him in front of the International Court of Justice, not that i (or he) will ever life to see it.
And if he dies in 2030?  Will you be glad he is dead 21 years after he has had any form of authority?

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Taking the risk of repating me:
I wrote, that i might have been happy if Bush had died 10 years ago. That is because it might have saved a lot of lives and maybe Iraq would be less of a amphetamine parrothole than it is today.

I also wrote that now that the damage has been done, id prefer justice. His death, if pointless, dosent mean anything to me.


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