Topic: Religion and Spirituality

[The GrimSqueaker]

Religion.  The cause of great suffering and great relief to mankind throughout our history.

 Merriam-Webster defines religion as:

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
—   re•li•gion•less adjective

This thread shall now be the place you post your religious questions, arguments, support, discussion, disgust, and general ponderings. The already open religion based threads will continue and will not be merged into this one at this time. Any new threads, split discussions, off topic ideas will be merged into this thread if they are unworthy of being their own thread.

Remember the commandments:
Thou shalt remember the rules of the discussion board and the forum as a whole.
Thou shalt not cross the line between argument and flaming.
Thou shalt realise the mods decide where that line is and may move it upon our every whim.
Thou shalt understand that the mods are watching you. Always
Thou shalt not be an arse.

May <insert deity or other noun of choice> have mercy upon our souls <citation required>.

Edit - Subject line change to be more inclusive.

[Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen]

I'd like to start off by saying a few simple words.

Religion, in its controlled and organised state, is a terrible thing.  It has caused massive pain and suffering over the thousands of years its existed, in the form of human sacrifice, genocide, holy wars, persecution, fear and intimidation, prejudgice, repression of information and general anti-intellectualism.  And that applies for just about any religion you can think of (besides Buddism, it seems - though I've not read up enough about it to say for sure).

Spiritualism, however, is a good thing.  It gives people a reason for existance, a moral compass, hope when there is no hope, happiness and comfort.

The difference?  Religion is often forced upon people from a young age.  You made no choice whatsoever in your beliefs.  You are told what to do, and often the things you are told to do go against good decent human values.  Spiritualism is a personal thing, you've made up your own mind about the way the world is.  You have decided your own values based on how you think the world should be, and how people should treat one another.

~Andromidius

[Irandrura]

Religion, in its controlled and organised state, is a terrible thing.

I disagree. Organised religion, in that it provides structure and organised tradition, is a good thing. I would compare it to the existence of a government. We can see that governments are responsible for massive pain and suffering, cruelty, persecution, genocide, intimidation, anti-intellectualism, repression, and so on and so forth. Yet we would not say that anarchy is therefore preferable to having a government. Organised religious bodies must be seen the same way: yes, they have on occasion been responsible for undesirable things, but we cannot therefore say that they are inherently bad.

in the form of human sacrifice,

You do realise that some religious bodies have actively opposed human sacrifice? One notes that, for example, human sacrifice was only common in pre-Christian Europe, and its cessation can be linked to the greater spread of new religious concepts.

genocide

Governments are responsible for that on a far greater level than religion. Should we then abolish all government? I'm also curious as to what instances you're thinking of specifically.

holy wars,

I think you'll tend to find those have all the causes of ordinary wars. Organised religion has never been solely, or even mostly, responsible for those.

fear and intimidation

That's incredibly vague. Has not organised religion also brought spiritual relief and hope to people?

repression of information and general anti-intellectualism

That's an unfounded generalisation. Consider, for example, the role of the Catholic Church in preserving knowledge and in education in pre-modern Europe. Consider its long history of encouraging academic study, and of offering patronage to scholars also. Organised religious bodies can and have been highly supportive of intellectual pursuits.

And that applies for just about any religion you can think of

I'm sorry, but it does not. You cannot make such a sweeping negative generalisation while ignoring the vast array of benefits associated with organised religion.

Spiritualism, however, is a good thing.  It gives people a reason for existance, a moral compass, hope when there is no hope, happiness and comfort.

Do you not feel that organised religion, in providing a framework and organised body of spiritual teachings, can be of inestimable use in the development of human spirituality?

The difference?  Religion is often forced upon people from a young age.  You made no choice whatsoever in your beliefs.  You are told what to do, and often the things you are told to do go against good decent human values.

That's another unfair generalisation. To be sure, some religious bodies have done that, but you cannot extrapolate that to all religious organisations.

Spiritualism is a personal thing, you've made up your own mind about the way the world is.  You have decided your own values based on how you think the world should be, and how people should treat one another.

Is there not more to religion that simple normative concerns? There are questions beyond simply how we should treat one another that are addressed by religion.

[Rasmus]

You are talking about Churches, not religion. Churches impose structures, laws and opinions on people. A religion does not. A religion is between you and whatever deity/force you have faith in, a church is a human organisation centered normally on a building or a group of people (a.k.a a Congregation). They are two very different animals.

Spiritualism is the human drive to seek faith, so seek something bigger to believe in than yourself. It is active doubt in its healthiest form, and leads you inevitably to religion, given enough time.

[Irandrura]

You are talking about Churches, not religion. Churches impose structures, laws and opinions on people. A religion does not. A religion is between you and whatever deity/force you have faith in, a church is a human organisation centered normally on a building or a group of people (a.k.a a Congregation). They are two very different animals.

Is not a congregation a good thing, though? It is the socialisation of religion; we like to share our spirituality with others, whether in a Christian church or a Buddhist sangha. I see no reason why it is a bad thing for like-minded individuals to organise themselves into a common body.

[Sir Sam Vimes]

Is not a congregation a good thing, though? It is the socialisation of religion; we like to share our spirituality with others, whether in a Christian church or a Buddhist sangha. I see no reason why it is a bad thing for like-minded individuals to organise themselves into a common body.

Agreed, as long as there are boundaries for how much we should share. Remember that sects are a kind of a socialisation of religion, and most of the time they aren't what one would call healthy things.

Moderation is the key in all things, whether it's religion, politics or something else.

[Rasmus]

Is not a congregation a good thing, though? It is the socialisation of religion; we like to share our spirituality with others, whether in a Christian church or a Buddhist sangha. I see no reason why it is a bad thing for like-minded individuals to organise themselves into a common body.

   A congregation in itself is not a bad thing. It goes a bit pear-shaped when you impose structures that are unnatural to its members, rules to benefit some (or one) but not all, and limit the freedom to chose otherwise, or to leave, however. Churches, in all too many cases, contain one or more of these elements, and while we call the srticter ones cults, they are just a variant of the same idea.

[Irandrura]

Certainly I do not wish to deny the many potential pitfalls of organisation. As with any organisation, problems can arise. I would merely put religious organisations in the same category as any free organisation of like-minded individuals.

[Kekron]

I agree with Rasmus here, religion isnt the 'cause' for the negativity toward various religions of the world but the human-created organizational structure. Personally, i have no problem with Catholicism but I believe that the Catholic church is a little twisted. *raises hands* from my experience! not a generality *lowers hands*

the second poster was discussing about genocide and holy wars, if my memory serves. Christianity didnt cause them, but the Catholic church did at the time (the crusades? Or was it the holy roman church, forgive me if my history isnt totally sound and please correct me if it isnt.)

[small_furry_spider]

Does this mean separate religion threads will be allowed as long as they are sufficiently defined? E.g a question about how to reconcile old and new testament theology from a Christian perspective or what a Muslim thinks of the afterlife will get swamped and never answered in a single combined thread.

Declaration of personal interest: I try to read the odd Christian thread but I don't have time to slog through 50+ pages to find out where a discussion is (work family etc). I can read and post into a short thread, but I will miss out if all the threads are lumped together.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Does this mean separate religion threads will be allowed as long as they are sufficiently defined?

Of course. In the same manner the AK-47 vs M-16 and Best Fighter Plane threads weren't combined into the Firearms and Weapons System sticky.

This thread is the catch all for posts that are not so well defined.

[Dr. Ravingburger]

the second poster was discussing about genocide and holy wars, if my memory serves. Christianity didnt cause them, but the Catholic church did at the time (the crusades? Or was it the holy roman church, forgive me if my history isnt totally sound and please correct me if it isnt.)

Actually, the Crusades were begun when the Byzantines (Eastern Orthodox) called for help against Muslim expansion, and the original goal was the recapturing of the Holy Land. The first 5 Crusades were launched without the Pope's blessing I believe.

Most of the time, it was zealous preachers whose words connected to most, and then the rulers sent knights, and the peasents flocked to join them.

[Kekron]

cool, i stand er- sit corrected. However doesnt my point still prove true? That it is not the religion that causes the negativity that the 2nd poster was refering too, but in fact the organized structure of said religion.

[Dr. Ravingburger]

Not really. Again, it was the actions of the few. True, they were in positions of power over the peasants- who truly looked up to them- but in was THEIR personal opinions that caused these- the Church took no real stance for the first 5 Crusades.

[Kekron]

ok well what-do-you-know

i guess that settles that then hehe.

[Larandil]

You do realise that some religious bodies have actively opposed human sacrifice? One notes that, for example, human sacrifice was only common in pre-Christian Europe, and its cessation can be linked to the greater spread of new religious concepts.

Hate to rain on your parade, but: the Romans or Greeks did not subscribe to human sacrifices. The Carthaginians sacrificed children to Ba'al Hammon and Tanit, and the pre-Columbain Aztecs considered human sacrifices as necessary to keep the sun alive.
And the practices of the Kali-worshipping Thugs in India endured until the 19th century.

[Pvt. Dancer]

I don't think people need religion, theism in particular. Many people cling to it to either find an answer, be part of something or get raised with the thoughts from an early age. I find theism repulsive and rather choose to go my own separate way to find an answer. I often feel there's already a path laid out for me and I can see that in the darkest hour there's always something to look forward to, not because of religion or belief, but by my own actions. I'm doing my best to explain but i'm obviously not very good at it, my excuses

[Kekron]

I believe that goes back to the fact that human beings arent really religious at heart, but we are very spiritual. Which is why I am leaving the faith I was raised in to find something more fitting, like Buddhism.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

I'd like to qualify spirituality as that "search for something deeper," or a personal understanding of the self.  Spirituality may be satisfied by religion, communion with nature, (hiking, fishing) strong family connections, et cetera.  Psychology and psychiatry treat illnesses, spirituality seeks to understand and better utilize our day-to-day feelings and understand one's purpose, similar to philosophy but tailored to the individual.

[argos5]

Great posts by everyone. Pro-Religion and Anti-Religion.

I'd like to start that Religion has its roots as what I consider "the Old Science". Science in a sense that it has been used to explain just about everything in life to those who seek the knowledge and guidance. Today, this Old Science has created a schism  with today's human achievements in our knowledge fields. Stereotypically, we see this as a duality between Religion and Science.

Let's look back on the religion I grew up on, Christianity.

---
Christianity was born out of the explosive preachings of the Nazarene who started converted non-Jewish people.
In the following few paragraphs I'm going to exemplify the marriage of the Church and the actions of man, hoping to point out in the end that there is a big correlation between religion and it being responsible for man's actions.

There are 2 paths I want to take this. Before Order before this event (The Jewish Priesthood) and the Order after this event (The Church).

Jewish Priesthood
-Most people are familiar with the Flood story.
This story has the oldest recorded incident in the Akkadian Epic of Atra-Hasis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrahasis. This was later adapted in the Epic of Gilgamesh and chronologically, the Bible. If you look through shortly on the details of each story's version, it starts to progressively become more exaggerated. Local River Flood ----> World Flood.

Notably, the Jewish priesthood early-on, took a method of canonical editing called 'midrash'. Although it differs today in its use, editing took place within that particular event. This was used to research and fill-in any gaps presented in the early Torah. For example, the edit of the Lilith story in early Genesis.

---
The Church
This is getting long, so I'll cut it short.

The Church is recorded to taking a heavy hand in composing the Bible and the interpretations of its text. From the Council of Nicea, to the exclusion of scrolls from the Bible (Acts of Paul and Thecla, Testament of Solomon, Book of Enoch, etc), to the interpretations of these (Sola Scriptura, Liber Gomorrhianus, etc).

---

Changes of interpretations and additions to religion such as these are a human habit. We experience it among people (playing 'telephone') and in sermons ('denominations'). And folk often justify their actions by the mystical. Because of this, we end up running into these wars. Religions take responsibility over the pains of war and history, not because religions are inherently evil--- but that they are inherently based on interpretations of humans pre-doctrine and post-doctrine.

I don't take this so much a problem anymore, as it is a human habit. Nowadays religion has become less strict--- which is okay, but I do vouch for a revision of this religious doctrine if we are to preserve a more progressive and coherent religion--- using what we've learned in the various fields of thought to refine our understanding of people and the world.