Topic: troop heavy, or no?

[csjarrat]

hi guys, i was wondering why firewarriors arent more prevalent in lists, given the importance of troops and the volume of S5 firepower they can put down.
i remembered looking through my friends codex and seeing that you could easily max out troops selections and have 30 going forwards in transports and 30+ with drones sitting on objectives, with enough spare points for hq and big gun support.
it must be crap in practice though otherwise other people would be doing lists like that though right?

i look at guardians, and i look at firewarriors and as an eldar player, i'm jealous!

[ShasO Bentu]

Consider this if I may throw this out there.  A guardian vs a Fire Warrior is a comparison as I don't feel they measure up correctly.  I, also, believe the Guardian is a bit overpointed by about 2 points actually (especially in comparison to the DE codex and their Warrior).  So, I like to compare a Fire Warrior to a Veteran Guardsman as they are the same point value.  The Veteran has better BS, WS, I, and I believe they even have better Leadership but their base gun is weaker than the Pulse Rifle.  I look at it this way, is the extra 2 points of Str and 6" of range really worth the difference in base stat line?  I don't actually believe so but that is my opinion.  Why you see a lot of people running min. squads of Fire Warriors is so they do not have to pay the slightly inflated cost of a Fire Warrior when they could be spending those points on another XV8.  For every 6 man, you can get 1 more really effective XV8 instead.  Now, let's go a little deeper into this.  The other Troop option you have is a Kroot Carnivore which is just about 1/3 cheaper than the Fire Warrior.  What you get is a model with the same BS, better WS, better I, worse save when not in good cover, worse Leadership (I think), Infiltrate, and a little worse of a gun.  You can mass up Kroot in Cover with their infiltration skill (especially if an objective is there) and now they have the same survivability.  Kroot tend to me the big unit of the Tau Army. 
Now, I am not saying to minimize your Fire Warrior contribution as I do max their squad whenever I can.  I would say that, for a stand and shoot, Kroot are better and have the CC ability that a front line shooter should have.  Properly employed, the two units should work in tandem well.  Take a full Fire Warrior Squad in a Warfish and a 15 man Kroot Squad.  Use them two to take down one unit, assaulting with the Kroot if you need a blockade for the Fire Warriors and you have a brilliant tactical combination.  In the numbers though, you are talking about 2 units that, combined, cost over 300 points of your army total.  In the end of it, you could have spent those 300 points on nearly 2 full units of XV8 that can put out more reliable, powerful, and functional fire power.  Hence why you see minimized Fire Warrior Squads.
See the 2k list I put up a little bit ago today to see what I like to run.  I have found it to be fairly effective against most players with exception to a Land Raider heavy, Monster Bug, Dark Eldar rapid assault, or a Blood Angel Force (darn the Blood Angels, I can never win).  That list may be what you are kind of looking for in a Tau Troop Heavy Force.

[Shas'La robo]

So, I like to compare a Fire Warrior to a Veteran Guardsman as they are the same point value.

Incorrect a squad, of 10, is 70 points, unless your also using carapace armour.
Also they have totally different roles so they can't be accuratly compared. The veteran is generally used as a mechanism to transport high BS special weapons. 

robo

[ShasO Bentu]

Yep, I did include the Carapace Armour in the cost of the Veteran in my analysis.  That is how you get the equivalent point cost and save.  As stated, it is also how I like to compare "my" basis of a Fire Warrior. 
The functional roles between the two are similar though, at least the way that I take my FW.  Most IG players I play against, run 10 Vets in Chimera/Valkyrie to get close to the enemy and blast away.  This is the same thing I normally do with my FW squad.  I load them up in a Warfish, get close to the enemy and blast away.  The only functional difference, as you pointed out, is Vets get special weapons (a boat load of them) but the Fire Warrior does not get that luxury.  Given the Vets special weapons would increase the cost of the Vet,  I did not apply that to my comparison and pitted the two one on one at an equal base cost.  When I look at it that way, the Vet does pull ahead for the same cost due to all the higher base stats. 
Now to add this final objective view.  I can take 12 FW in a Squad, whereas Vets can only be taken in 10.  Take that 20 point difference and let the Vets get special weapons to make up the cost and the Vet Squad will easily win out against the Fire Warrior in that fight (especially because I keep thinking that is 4 flamers . . . ouch).  The Fire Warriors only benefit in this case is the increased range and Str of weapon.  If you include the transport option for each, it pretty much nulls out both of those benefits. 
In any case, I feel I am derailing this thread on my 3rd post ever so I digress.  The main reason you see min sized squads of Fire Warriors is so we can get more XV8's.  I wish there was something more to that, but that is the reasoning I keep hearing. 
If you take max troop count in nothing but Fire Warriors and 3 transports you are going to put a bunch of S5 firepower out there but it will be at a huge cost of points to get some of the things that are a must.  Just doing a quick calculation in my head, you are looking at over 1000 points of fire warriors after necessary upgrades.  In most competitive games, that does not leave many points for things like XV8's, XV88's, Hammerheads, and Piranha's which is pretty much what I see as standard in higher points games.  To add to that, you have no CC support in that option either which is the Kroot.  While I have seen a few armies out there be successful without Kroot, it tends to make life so much easier just to throw a cheap unit at an advancing enemy whilst your Fire Warriors fall back to better Firing Position. 
I hope that I my opinion has been somewhat useful to you and that this has not been muddied down too much. 

[Wyddr]

Firewarriors are plenty useful, but they aren't versatile enough to justify taking an awful lot of them. Their lack of special or heavy weapon options means they have difficulty against mechanized targets (they can glance rhinos and shoot down Raiders, sure, but Wave Serpent or Chimera spam laughs in their faces unless you're very clever and even Rhinos can generally waltz through pulse fire well enough to complete their mission) and, furthermore, their relative lack of survivability and their ineffectiveness at close range mean they aren't so hot at taking or holding objectives. They need plenty of support to fulfill that role, and so dumping huge quantities of points into their ranks doesn't pay off so much. They are basically long-range support these days (the usefulness of 'fish of fury' is much depleted these days, though it has its moments), and they are also anti-infantry. If you're playing Nids or somebody running squads on foot, they'll do great. If not, they don't add a hell of a lot until somebody else pops those transports. Run with 20-30, max, and that's enough.

Kroot aren't much better off, honestly, but they are cheaper and have infiltrate, making them somewhat more useful in certain metagames. They still suck at killing things and siezing objectives, though, which generally lowers them significantly in my esteem. (I digress, however)

[ShasO Bentu]

I would argue that Fire Warriors a very effective at short range if supported well enough.  The only issue is everything you need to have to support them.  I usually have to dump markerlights on the unit they are shooting to up their BS and make sure I have a unit of kroot nearby to make an assault if necessary.  Alone, I agree, the lack of effectiveness and survivability is abysmal.  I am not sold that the Warfish is not worth while or too situational yet as it is an extra 7 S5 shots at a better BS if you upgrade it.  Then again, for the points you have to pay for it, I can see why it comes into question.  I generally don't take my Fire Warriors after Transports though and use my Missile Pods to take down Rhino's as they are the same as an Autocannon anyway so that is nearly a mute point for me.  The majority of the Tau army focus on anti-infantry and, my tactic, means that I need use other units to break the mobility of my opposing army.  Hence where the issue comes in.  If, as the OP had stated, we use all our troops slots to load up on Fire Warriors, we lose a chunk of the points needed to deny the enemy mobility by use of XV8/XV88/Piranha/Hammerheads. 
As far as Kroot go, they actually serve a greater purpose in the way I design my army than my Fire Warriors do.  I take large squads (no less than 15) to infiltrate into a good piece of cover, preferably with an objective in it, and harass the enemy.  This tactic normally makes it so the enemy has to engage them or face losing a couple models every turn to a cheap "throw away" unit.  Then, I will bring my Fire Warriors to their aid, add in some markerlights, and be able to take down (or nearly take down) even a marine squad.  At that point, my kroot go from harassment to defending Fire Warriors with an assault if needs be or a screen while the Fire Warriors have to wait a turn to get back in the Fish.  This works for me about 75% of the time as the majority of players I go against tend to only commit one unit to go after Kroot.  They are ignorable if you don't mind taking the 1-3 wounds from them a turn though. 
Considering all of this, I agree with Wyddr, they are not versatile enough to justify maxing out your Troops choices and points with them and 2 squads is all you really ever need or want to take.  Make sure you support them and, making the enemy commit to them vice the big hitters in your force is a must.

[csjarrat]

figured there'd be something i was missing!
cheers guys, most helpful.
how do tau fare against the newer books? seems like there is a lot in there designed to be fast and good at CC, something i would imagine makes a game quite difficult?

[Wyddr]

figured there'd be something i was missing!
cheers guys, most helpful.
how do tau fare against the newer books? seems like there is a lot in there designed to be fast and good at CC, something i would imagine makes a game quite difficult?

It's rather difficult, in general. Most lists these days concentrate on XV8s and often XV88s to murder transports to hell and back, then pounce on what gets out with firewarriors/kroot/whatever else. It's a risky proposition in such lists, and they don't often fare well (since they are essentially banking on breaking the enemy in the first two turns or so). Such lists often use Kroot as speedbump units to trip up advancing vehicles/units, and this works to a varying degree of effectiveness depending on mission, deployment, and enemy composition as well as point level (in other words, it can work, but it's far from a sure thing).

The alternate strategy (and the one I prefer myself) is based off of avoidance and maneuver. It relies on hitting the enemy from odd angles and keeping yourself mobile to delay or limit the assault. These armies use XV8s and Stealths, mechanized Firewarriors, Piranha, and Hammerheads/Skyrays to keep things moving. These work pretty well against slower opponents or folks who spread out their deployment. They don't work so well against armies more mobile than themselves (Mechdar and Dark Eldar being prime examples). I find, though, in this kind of list you have a longer time between when the game starts and when you realize whether or not you're going to win/lose and it isn't quite as mission or terrain dependent (though terrain always helps).

In either event, the Tau have a pretty tough time these days, especially against the newer books like the boutique-Marines (SW, BA, GK) and Imperial Guard.

[ShasO Bentu]

I second Wyddr's opinion and add in this tidbit.  The first paragraph that Wyddr put in is basically my strategy most of the time, which is why I invest so many points into Crisis Suits with Missile Pods, XV88's, Piranha's, and seeker missiles.  I try to break as many transports as possible early on, then use my mobile teams to pick apart the footsloggers (stealth teams are great for this role).  The good news is, it tends to work for me often enough for me to keep doing it though, it does suffer against Dark Eldar, Land Raider heavy, and Blood Angels (assault marine heavy) forces.  Dark Eldar are on me before I ever get the chance to stop them, Land Raiders require me to actually take more than one or two fusion blasters (though XV88's do a nice job if I would field more than one unit), and Blood Angels . . . well, they're Blood Angels, what else can I say.
Tau do have it rough right now though our Codex still seems fairly solid in many aspects.  What we need is the creep to catch us up.  Lower our points values (the single biggest issue with our dex now in my opinion), give us a better marker light system (the rumor mill one is great), and upgrade our ability to shoot (as we are an all or nothing shoot force) we would be a very competitive codex.  Right now, being a Tau Commander and winning a game means that you are a great tactician or your opponent just started playing 40k.  I like to claim the first of the two and I would definitely venture to say that most of the people that are on these forums on a regular basis can claim the same (they haven't given up, they are still winning and having fun). 
Lastly, if rumor has what I have heard, in about 4-5 months, this conversation may be completely different in a good way. 

[TNT925]

The Tau army is all about having everything working together like a well oiled machine, and losing the wrong unit at the wrong time can cost you the game. If you can get your firewarriors into position, either to pepper the enemy from long range or blow them away in one turn at rapid fire range, they can lay down some serious punishment. That's a BIG if though. Most of the people I've played see that high str. high range gun, and say "nope, I'm pretty sure I want that dead now."

Firewarriors aren't bad, but just like everything else in the army, they need to be supported. As far as how well we fare against newer lists... I find it a bit random. Against the new guards and tyranids I've actually had pretty good luck, and my games against Space Wolves actually seem to be fairly balanced, but Blood Angels are a very scary prospect. We aren't as crippled by our old dex as say Necrons are, but we are by no means as effective as we could be either.

[ShasO Bentu]

I have had a lot of success vs Tyranids so long as it is not a Monster Bug list.  I find it difficult to fit in the weaponry I need to take down enough MC's in a Tau list the way I build it.  I still take a lot of troops in my forces at a minimum rate of one squad per 500 points (sometimes even more depending on what I feel like doing that day).  I never liked min/maxing units so if I take a squad of Fire Warriors, they are almost always maxed (12 with one being a Sash'ui carrying a bonding knife).  I have only played our only DE player twice and I am still coming to grips with how to deal with their speed.  That may be an interesting thread if it hasn't been posted already (I will have to look).  Space Wolves can go either way and I still despise the Blood Angels because I just haven't figured out how to stop them from getting to me.  The basic issue I have with Blood Angels is that they are Marines that I need to do my best at trying to keep and kill at range.  That is not an easy job.  I had thought it would be like fighting Chaos but it apparently is not the same.

Tau is a big cohesion army, all unit must support all units.  There is not a single unit in the force that does not need forceful back up in my opinion.  Even my Crisis Suits need something (mostly a markerlight or two but sometimes another unit to stop them from getting assaulted).  You are correct by saying we are not crippled by our codex as it was written very well.  There are definitely some glaring issues with it now that the creep has nearly came full circle though and it may soon become a bit daunting for us to take down the newest armies out there (especially another shooty force like the new Necrons that, compared to us, have really mean assault units to back that up; i.e. Wraiths, Tomb Guard, and even Flayed Ones can wreck our day).  Only time will tell on that matter.  As for now, I enjoy winning and losing with Tau because, the times I win (I like to say more often than not), it is impressive to see the old codex still holding it's own against the newer models.  When I lose, I generally make my opponent suffer and work for it.  Tau is a very strategic army to use that demands you knowing how to use your units together as one strong force.  I am the only Tau player in my local shop (small shop, only about a dozen regulars) so, when I first started playing with them, it was one heck of a learning curve.

[Commissar ShoutY]

my tau work on the basic principle of every unit has it's kill zone.
ion head and crisis suits with missile pods for long range.
fire warriors and skyray for medium range.
stealth suits, fire warriors and crisis suits for up close blasting!

in my lists i never have anything less then 3 full fire warrior squads as a base, S5 shooting with a 4+save? stick them in cover and you've got a heck of a hard unit to shift without bad luck or an inordinate amount of fire power heading for them. i'm often just happy to have my fire warriors slug it out with guard platoons or SM tac squads while the rest of my army moves in or around for the kill.