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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2017, 06:24:18 AM »
I would agree that not giving a Bolter a save mod is the right move. They would become way too effective at killing elite infantry. It does reduce their effectiveness overall, but something had to give.

I'm anxious now to see how blast weapons work, given flamers. Too many of my armies rely on them, so they'd better be good.

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2017, 07:24:12 AM »
I think the theory is that the die roll will take less time than any given template. Not certain I agree, but it *is* simpler in execution.

I also am not certain that I agree, but it's certainly simpler, as you say.

Overall the game is going to get more stream-lined and quicker to play. So the odd extra dice roll here and there isn't going to make a difference.

I think that it's too early to reach that conclusion.  Consider that it remains unknown as to whether there will still be an instant death rule.  If that rule is removed, there is the possibility that damage rolls will have to be made against every infantry model which has multiple wounds, which is time consuming.  Also, squads comprising entirely specialist or heavy weapons are going to take longer to resolve damage for.  Think about Eldar, for example, and all their exotic weaponry, or Devastator squads or Havocs with multiple heavy weapons which are likely to cause multiple points of damage.  I need to see more about how often or whether it's going to be necessary to roll for damage against infantry before I am as confident as you are about the amount of dice rolling involved.

Another point worth making regarding determining hits on a six sided dice is that this system was previously used for some weapons, notably the Eldar Scatter Laser, in older editions of the rules.  It was abandoned because it was considered ineffective.  I remain to be convinced that it has suddenly become effective.  I feel as though the wheel is being reinvented somewhat with this approach.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2017, 07:48:01 AM »
Yep, the old scatter lasers sucked. So did sustained fire dice.

On the bright side, Flamers *do* hit automatically. That's better than the old way.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2017, 02:26:55 PM »
So we now have a movement value, running is d6 inches on top of that value and done in the movement phase, and units can fall back out of combat at the cost of performing other actions.  Basically, they went full AoS on movement.  I'm ok with that.  :)

Offline Lorizael

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2017, 03:07:45 PM »

I'm anxious now to see how blast weapons work, given flamers. Too many of my armies rely on them, so they'd better be good.

Probably random dice rolls too, same as in AoS.

So we now have a movement value, running is d6 inches on top of that value and done in the movement phase, and units can fall back out of combat at the cost of performing other actions.  Basically, they went full AoS on movement.  I'm ok with that.  :)

Aye, movement seems cool. The ability to fall back out of combat will be great.  :D

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2017, 03:11:47 PM »
The movement looks fine. I wonder if units will still get a 2D6" charge (I assume/hope so). Optional fall-back is a great rule--tarpits were always kinda stupid.

Probably random dice rolls too, same as in AoS.

Well obviously, but what *kind* of dice rolls? Will small blasts be a D3 hits or a D6? Will you have to roll to hit separately? How many dice will a large blast get? Is scattering onto friendly models gone for good?

A lot of variables there, many of them very important.

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2017, 03:24:22 PM »
I'm going to make an educated guess and say that small blast will be d3 hits, and large blast d6. they could also use the mechanic AoS does, where if your hitting a unit which is quite large, then you get bonuses to your hit roll, or more hits.

For the blasts, it'll work out the same with a roll, or the template. You usually only get 1-2 models with a small blast, and 2-4 with a large anyway.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2017, 04:04:00 PM »
I usually only get 2 or so with the small, yeah, but I regularly get 5-6 with the large and often even more, depending on situation. It would be one thing if those hits were automatic, but large blasts having only a d6 hits *and* having to roll to hit will suck big time. Part of the whole advantage of those templates were the pretty solid odds of getting at least 1 hit. Part of the advantage of all templates was being able to capitalize on bunched formations of troops to do god-awful tons of damage (as is fitting). All of this adds up to a pretty huge nerf of blast weapons, especially for low BS armies.
 

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2017, 04:13:53 PM »
I usually only get 2 or so with the small, yeah, but I regularly get 5-6 with the large and often even more, depending on situation. It would be one thing if those hits were automatic, but large blasts having only a d6 hits *and* having to roll to hit will suck big time. Part of the whole advantage of those templates were the pretty solid odds of getting at least 1 hit. Part of the advantage of all templates was being able to capitalize on bunched formations of troops to do god-awful tons of damage (as is fitting). All of this adds up to a pretty huge nerf of blast weapons, especially for low BS armies.

...but having D6 hits against a single model will give them a different advantage, maybe they'll become solid anti-tank weapons, for example. Doesn't feel very fluffy, granted.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2017, 04:40:56 PM »
I don't know, a flamer aimed down an open hatch would probably end any tank.  But I would assume that the multiple hits will be diluted by the toughness and armour of bigger stuff.  It is fluffy though.  Imagine setting the monster on fire.  That's bound to be the equivalent of scoring multiple wounds.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2017, 05:17:47 PM »
Too be honest, after playing against Chaos Renegades with over 40 small blast shots a turn, I'm done with templates lol. Those turns took forever.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2017, 09:17:45 PM »
I get that, and I think there are ways to get blasts to work well w/o templates, but I don't want *both* random numbers of hits *and* a to-hit roll unless those random numbers are pretty high.

D3/D6 auto hit might be okay.

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2017, 09:24:00 PM »
So far I have very much liked what I have seen for the new edition... but this really worries me

Quote
If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!
New Warhammer 40,000 – Movement – Warhammer Community

Seeing as many less-loved armies rely on sticking into cc to keep their units alive. Both as locking down enemy shooting and just for the cc units themselves. 7th ed has really been the bane of CC units with the prevalence of shooting. I don't see (with current build mentality) how a unit like wyches can be playable now. Perhaps command points? Or finally give them their dodge against shooting? Or! Bring back LD tests to shoot at a unit that isn't the closest. I miss that rule lol.

So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2017, 09:32:34 PM »
Age of Sigmar has a rule like that, but units cannot shoot or charge in the same turn afterwards. If that's true for retreats in 8th as well, it'll make retreating have huge cons, besides your opponent getting free shots on you.

We don't have the rulebook in front of us, so I would wait until the rules are out and we've gotten a few games under our belts before getting too worried about anything. Easy to point out 'flaws' in the changes in a vacuum, but I'm waiting for the edition to be released before making any judgments.

Too be fair, nothing they have spoiled so far I disagree with. I'm excited tomorrow to see what they do with the psychic phase, as it's broken in 7th.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2017, 09:35:11 PM »
Well, I guess Wyches'll get their 6+ save? They'll probably be hitting on 3s?

Honestly, everything I'm seeing indicates this will *not* be assault's favored edition. Perhaps overwatch will go away, or maybe you'll be able to consolidate into new combats again. Still doesn't look good to be a Wych, though.

(and yeah, I'm still fixated on blasts. D6 random hits for a demolisher cannon sucks, guys. Totally sucks. I'll stop whining though until I have something more solid to complain about.)

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2017, 09:41:30 PM »
As far as blasts, the only one we know for certain is the flamer. Its an auto hit with d6 hits. Demolisher cannon could be something like roll to hit - if it hits 2d6+6 hits - if it misses its just 2d6 hits.

I do agree we need to see more rules about combat etc to see how everything balances out, But my initial response is a shocked "what..."

I am very much looking forward to psychic rules and how they are gonna change cause they need too... badly
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2017, 09:53:09 PM »
I'm going to say again, that it's impossible to make generalizations with the incomplete set of rules. Wait until the rules are out, and folks have played a few games. That's the time to start being salty.

GW has had the new rules play tested for a while by Front Line Gaming, and the organizers of multiple tournament organizers in the states. This has been confirmed by GW and FLG. GW has been going to events, and watching how the game has been played. Knowing this, I am certain 8th is going to be good for everyone.

I'm looking forward to seeing all armies on the table again, and everything being viable again. I'm confident this is the case. The game will be different, but that does not have to be a bad thing.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2017, 09:59:56 PM »
I'm going to say again, that it's impossible to make generalizations with the incomplete set of rules. Wait until the rules are out, and folks have played a few games. That's the time to start being salty.

Guys, it doesn't get much clearer than that. Stay on target, leave the targeting computer *on*, and relax your way through the trench till the exhaust port appears.

It's great that GW are showing us spoilers as we wind our way to a full release. Don't panic, always know where your towel is, and remain mostly harmless.

So say we all.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2017, 05:35:19 AM »
Seeing the new move out of combat rules, I'm fairly confident CC armies just got their final nail in their coffin. Even if you can assault from transports and reserves and jump into new combats and continue, it still does not add up to the power to retreat after a single round of combat.

The only fix would be 24" assault moves for everyone, and since the attacker hits first, just gang up on one unit, then consolidate into the next and it would throw the pendulum far into the opposite direction.
Having any resemblance of balance under these rules will be nigh impossible.
Maybe that is the thing for GW, if they can't fix it, wreck it.
I was positive to 8th ed before these things came out, but now I just started to lean the other way.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2017, 06:22:08 AM »
I'm still very positive on these changes overall. Any trepidation I feel is largely a result of history: GW does not have a good track record of balancing editions. Then again, this seems to be a new GW, so I'm hopeful.

In any event, I've yet to play an edition I haven't enjoyed, so I expect this will be no exception.

 


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