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Author Topic: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?  (Read 2183 times)

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Offline Dageran

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[1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« on: January 28, 2017, 02:01:09 PM »
A couple of months and a ton of painting later, my playgroup is talking about upgrading to 1500 points! Given the great advice I've gotten here before, I'd love to get people's thoughts on the list I'm thinking of bringing to our next session, as well as some advice in general on how to round out a Wraith Host without resorting to jetbike spam.

Moving to 1500pts, My main goals are to:
-- Stick with a foot-centric Wraith list. (No jetbikes or transport spam. Matchless Agility++)
-- Round out the list's strong/weak matchups. (At lower points, the list was super strong against SM, and auto-lost vs. Tyranids. Ideally, I'd like to bring a list that creates close games, rather than stomps one way or another.)
-- Keep the list fluffy enough to offset having to bring the Wraithknight for the Wraith-Host formation bonus.

Given all that, the list I'm thinking of right now is:

Eldar Warhost -
Pale Court:
  • Farseer + Spirit Stones
  • Dire Avengers x5
  • Dire Avengers x5
  • Dire Avengers x5

Wraith Host:
  • Spiritseer
  • Wraithlord + Sword + Shuriken Cannon x2
  • Wraithblades x5 (Axes and shield) - (Protection for my spiritseer. Not sure if worth it over vanilla guard?)
  • Wraithguard x5
  • Wraithguard x5
  • Wraithknight (Sword/Shield) - To hunt down big scary things like the C'tan / Monolith / other knights

Engines of Vaul:
  • Night Spinner - (To give the army some turn 1 damage, and protect the wraithguard against gaunt spam)

Engines of Vaul:
  • Night Spinner (Not yet purchased. I'm debating if the second is worth it.)

----------------------------

In my collection for possible substitutions, I also have:
  • Wraithguard x5 (with optional D-scythes. I've left these out to avoid making the list too strong against SM.)
  • Wraithseer (Probably looking to add him at 1850 points, once we get there.)
  • 9x Striking Scorpions + Exarch
  • 9x Howling Banshees + Exarch
  • 5x Fire Dragons + Exarch
  • 5x Dark Reapers + Exarch
  • 15x Rangers
  • Wave Serpent
  • Falcon Grav Tank
  • 1x Extra Wraithlord (Magnetized for whatever)

In general, does this list seem well balanced / fair to bring to a game-night? I don't really have an idea yet of what's a friendly / unfriendly list.
I'm especially curious to know people's thoughts on the 2x Night Spinners. Is it worth fielding two, or would I be better off rounding out the list in some other way? (And if not, what substitutions would you recommend?)

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 05:48:04 PM »
Avengers truly need to be in larger units. I always take a full ten with no upgrades. Thirty of those guys with bladestorm will reck tyranids.

Personally I'd switch the nightspinner for another wraithlord. I'd always take them with flamers and since you're not running a gun line, I wouldn't take heavy weapons and run them every turn.

If you're feeling gutsy an avatar paired with wraithblades and wraithlords is always fun.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2017, 06:57:05 AM »
I like this list concept. Real glad to see you using Pale Courts+Wraithhost... that would have been my first suggestion to running Wraithwall. Wraithblades with axe and shield are always the way to go. I've run them countless times and they absolutley need that invuln. save. Whenever I get near someone with those things, the big guns come out and even Guard Veteran squads with plasma can wipe out a unit with one rapid fire volley.

I agree with DoW however... Avengers truly shine in bigger units, but since you are only playing 1500pts I think its worth it. Chances are they'll be ignored as the Wraith units fly up the board, so it can work. But as you move up in points, I'd definitley increase the body count and they will surely reward you. They are another unit I play all the time and 10 man squads are where its at.

I also think you could easily run your D-Scythes if you wanted to. Wraithwall is actually quite challenging to play. But you know your gaming group better than anyone. If you want to hold off for now, I think that'd be a good idea. But as people get used to your army dont hesitate to bust them out, especially on foot.

Also... yes! The Nightspinner is an excellent choice. I wish I had one in my collection because they give long range fire that is hard to find in the Eldar army. Everything taps out around 36" but not so the Nightspinner... and being barrage is also very helpful in the era of LOS blocking terrain. 

But I would definitley keep those Nightspinners in there... having long range fire in army like this is beyond clutch.

Anyway great list idea, please let us know how it does. If you get a chance take some photos and share with us I'd love to know how you do. Good luck and let us know your thoughts!
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Offline Partninja

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2017, 06:09:20 PM »
To add to Cavalier's advice, also consider a Fire Prism in place of the second Nightspinner. Unless you really need to get around LOS a lot, the Prism would give you tactical flexibility in its profile. Still get an acceptable pie plate for hordes (gaunts, Orks etc.), can still penetrate MEQ, but gives you some other AT/MC options. It is extra points though. You could swap the Farseer for a spiritseer to net a chunk of points.

The Avengers really need to be larger, but you would need to drop both Engines of Vaul options.

You have excellent ideas given the points and allowable options. I would suggest play testing these options to see what works out in your meta.

Edit: Have you considered an aspect-lord shrine of Swooping Hawks over the Avengers? This might seem a little more cheeky compared to the Avengers though. They would offer quite a bit of mobility form the army, as well as template options with the grenade packs. Small six man squads with an Exarch aren't horribly expensive. You would have to pull points from the Engines of Vaul auxiliary options though.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 06:58:29 PM by Partninja »

Offline Dageran

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2017, 09:50:35 PM »
Thanks for the advice! I have actually gotten the chance to play a game this past weekend (proxy-ing the night spinners with a friend), so I can report on how it went!

(Only have photos of the middle of turn 2, unfortunately.)


Full Alblum here: Necrons vs Eldar - Album on Imgur

In short: it was a decisive victory for the Eldar called on Turn 3. But-- victory was mostly due to unit placement and a very lucky seize the initiative roll.

We rolled diagonal deployment tactical escalation with the necrons going first. The Eldar counter-deployed clustered to the far left of the map- away from the necron infantry blob and gunning for a flank on the necron heavy units.

From here, things got lucky for the ghost army: first scoring Scout for a warlord trait (to move up the wraithknight / one unit of guard), and then to seize the initiative and advance on the necron flank.

The picture above shows the game state in the middle of the Eldar's turn 2. The nightbringer failed a charge on the previous turn, allowing the knight to step past it it and get a clear charge on the monolith, leaving the wraithguard to take down the nightbringer. Meanwhile, the wraithblades did their job of soaking up fire, but never got a chance to shine in the game otherwise.

Going into turn 3, with the immortals, nightbringer, and monolith destroyed vs. 3 wraithblades and a wraithguard, the game was called at 6-1 objective points in the Eldar's favor.

Big takeaways in general:
  • The dire avengers worked well as versatile capping units here. They were ignored by the necrons, and were able to cap points / score some kills vs. immortals and scarabs.
  • The night spinners didn't do too much this game (not too suprised vs. necrons), but the torrent saw some use inflicting ~4 casualties to the units entrenched in the ruins turn 3. I feel like it'll take another few games to see if doubling up on night spinners is a good plan.
  • Still not sure about the wraithblades. They tanked a fair bit of fire from the monolith and lost 3 units on the advance. Wraithguard might be more effective, although the 4++ save was relevant this game.

@PartNinja:

I have been thinking about swooping hawks. They look fun, but so far I feel like I haven't needed them. Cavalier is right in that, the past few games my Dire avengers have been almost completely ignored because of the foot-wraiths running up the field, and the Bladestorm has been very relevant in those cases where they do get to fire.

We also tend to play with tactical objectives in my playgroup, so it helps to have an affordable unit hanging back to cap points.

A fire prism is an interesting idea! The AP3 would be nice, but it would sacrifice an ignores-cover shot.

@Cavalier -

I'd definitely believe that 30x DA would wreck! It looks effective-- but I probably won't invest too heavily in them to avoid straying away from the wraith theme. Right now, the Avengers are working out pretty well as back-line cappers / support units, so I'm hoping to expand with a second wraithlord and/or the wraithseer moving up to 1850pts instead.

I have wanted to try out the D-scythes on foot for awhile, but they are a challenge to fit points-wise, and from the games I have played with them, they have a pretty exaggerated reputation. I have a hard time feeling that I'd be able to protect them long enough for them to make their points back.

So far though, it feels like the Wraithblades haven't been super relevant- (their 4+ invul save is seldom used, and counter-charging the Wraithblades tends to effectively counter them, since they're at 1 attack base)- I am still on the fence about potentially fielding a third squad of D-cannon guard in their place. (The two in the list do good work every game.)

Offline Cavalier

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 07:17:09 AM »
@Dageran- Wow super nice pics! What a great looking army... love the colors and the paint jobs are super nice. Wow! Great looking board too and the Necrons look good as well. Thanks for the pictures.

On the Wraithblades... oh yeah D-Cannon guys are much, much better. I like to run them because they are on my list of "Challenge" units. I'm always working on encorporating close-combat into my army and I like the Wraithblades in that role. Point for point the Cannons are better. But they can be great for deepstrike defense or engaging mid-field threats and you never know when you are gonna run into something like World Eaters, Blood Angels that'll start chasing you all over the place, Carnifexes or even a huge blob of Guard or Gaunts and you can charge the Wraithblades in with a character, grind them down and eventually break them. If you are looking to learn them I do highly recommend them, but if you are looking for raw efficiency they are not optimal. But they are pretty cheap. Also remember Wraithblades do have Rage!

Yeah 30 Avengers is one heck of an investment. For where you are at now, I think your configuration is good, and your in game experience proves it. In game experience trumps internet wisdom every time! lol  8)

Also well played by you. Necrons are my foil, I always struggle against them so congrats on the win!

Also if you have any interest in sharing your progress with painting up your awesome looking army, join us in the project logs. We have a number of other Eldar players down there working on armies. Join us if you have the time! Anyway great stuff man and thanks for the pics. Do keep us posted on how you get on with your league/campaign! Good luck I think you've got a great list concept!
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Offline Dageran

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 11:54:17 AM »
Thanks! I just checked out the project blogs section for the first time- loved reading the battle reports. I'll be sure to visit back and post a bit! Making a thread there sounds fun. Is it alright to post with what I've painted so far, or is it more about WIP stuff?

Regarding Wraithblades - yeah, 15 attacks on the charge is still the dream, I've only been able to pull off a charge once or twice. Frequently they end up getting counter-charged and then tar-pitted. (The wraithlord usually needs to babysit them anyway, since 5 attacks at initiative 1 usually doesn't work out for them.)

Offline Cavalier

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #7 on: February 1, 2017, 07:05:00 AM »
Hey Dageran, glad you like the bat-reps! Yeah you can totally post what you've got painted up already. I'd love to see a showcase of your army. They look great!

I know it is challenging to get those Wraithblades into combat. But I manage to do it pretty frequently. I try to go after units typically hiding in a corner, or go after the mid-field. My favorite was probably using Gate of Infinity with a Spirit Seer and chopping up a Riptide, but I've also slogged it for a Turn 3 assault with a 20 man Guard Platoon just recently and charging them with Wraithblades, Scorpions and Wraithlord for an unholy slaughter. Even had them wipe out a unit of Harlequins in a loss for myself.

Anyway they are challenging and if you feel you are better served with regular Wraithguard go for it. I like having an Autarch tucked in with my regular Wraithguard, packing a Fusion Gun and Soulshrive. That way if they are too far away to take out anything worthwhile, I can charge them into light infantry, giving my Autarch that high majority toughness, charge up his Soulshrive and that way they can mash up units in shooting and assault. I managed to take out a Land Raider, 30 Marines (making them fall of the back of the board) and a Predator before my opponent tapped out. Just another sort of odd use you may consider.

Anyway good stuff man and I hope you share some pics with us in the plogs. Your army looks great!
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Offline haunt

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2017, 09:34:57 PM »
Running is the free option for them and it gets them to their objective as fast as possible. (Wraithblades/axes)
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Offline Dageran

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2017, 02:23:25 PM »
After a few more games (against Tau & Chaos), I can verify that running the Wraiths up the field does work wonders.

The army works really well with a general "blitz" strategy of exploiting Battle Focus + Matchless Agility to skip through difficult terrain. To that end, the Nightspinners have been A+ in thinning problem units to give them cover to cross the board.

My next challenge has been to try and figure out if there's any way to make a similar list work with a Ynnari detachment. (Though I'm not optimistic. Losing Battle Focus from the Wraith Host is absolutely brutal.)

Offline haunt

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2017, 12:12:45 AM »
With confidence, I can say it is there... we all just need to get used to the other book. Go look at the list competition and get ideas from there.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2017, 07:40:39 AM »
Thats great Dageran... yeah the standard Warhost is excellent... Matchless Agility on Wraith units is incredible for sure.

I'm with you on the whole Ynarri thing. To give up Battle Focus... especially if you are used to playing Matchless Agility is HUGE. Its reliability and impact are huge. Soulburst can be very challenging to pull off and requires a delivery system to bring most Eldar units close enough to pull it off and I'm not sure its worth it if you aren't rocking WWP's, fast attack Raiders etc. For a Wraithwall style list in particular, you have to start investing points in transports, Archon's with WWP's etc which takes away critical points from an already low model count army.

Like Haunt said it bears play-testing and only time will truly tell.
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Offline Dread

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Re: [1500] C+C Building a well rounded, Take-all-comers Wraithwall?
« Reply #12 on: March 1, 2017, 12:38:10 AM »
First of all, I love Wraith wall armies, always been one of my favorites. I see you don't like bikes but 3 laser bikes is worth more then 5 avengers for a few reasons, more fire power, speed for objective taking, better save and jink, toughness etc. Other then that I love your list.

On another note, wow Cav, I never thought about wraith lords without heavy weapons, see old dogs can learn new tricks.
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