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Author Topic: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines  (Read 40462 times)

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Offline Theremin

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Re:Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #100 on: August 2, 2004, 09:36:40 AM »
Here's another one:

20 Warriors (2SCs, 2 Blasters, Sybarite with Agoniser)
Shooting: 3.19 marines killed
Charging: 1.8 marines killed
Total: 4.99 marines killed
Subsequent Rounds: 1.8 marines killed


If you added two Splinter cannons? Shouldent that speed up the killing?
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Offline Arcas

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #101 on: August 2, 2004, 09:41:32 AM »
Here's another one:

20 Warriors (2SCs, 2 Blasters, Sybarite with Agoniser)
Shooting: 3.19 marines killed
Charging: 1.8 marines killed
Total: 4.99 marines killed
Subsequent Rounds: 1.8 marines killed


If you added two Splinter cannons? Shouldent that speed up the killing?
They are included:
Quote
20 Warriors (2SCs, 2 Blasters, Sybarite with Agoniser)

jwu

Offline Theremin

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #102 on: August 2, 2004, 06:55:31 PM »
oh, i diden't notice them.  :-[
thx anyway.
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Offline Moonlit Stairway

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2004, 11:56:19 PM »
I play with a group of friends who use the following armies: 2x Tau, Tyranids, Space Wolves that will soon use Daemon Hunters, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Black Templar, Blood Angels, Iron Warriors, Witch Hunters, and Orks.

Now, most of what I wished to know was fulfilled allready, but alas, the two best players in said group are the ones who play Tau.  I'm not just saying this because it's Tau and so on, but because via experiance with them, I know they are.

What I'd like to see are statistics of whatever it is you can think of in Dark Eldar against Tau, because now that I've decided to exit my retirement of 40K and redo my entire DE Army, I want to have adequette knowledge to handle these two.

Thanks.
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Offline Khira'lyth

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2004, 11:37:51 AM »
Just a question...

Why is it that the Warriors are given the ability to Shoot and Charge, when under the new rules you can't charge them in if you shot?

And why aren't Wyches given the ability to Shoot before they charge.. because they're fully capable of shooting their pistols before they go in to CC....


Pog

Offline Tegadil

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #105 on: December 23, 2004, 12:34:38 PM »
Are you talking about the statistics? That's because when they were done (a while ago) 4E was still the sparkle in some game designer's eye.

Offline Khira'lyth

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #106 on: December 24, 2004, 10:31:06 PM »
That explains the warriors.. but not the Wyches.  Unless you mean to FoF them every time (and with a Raider it's usually not that big a deal) they would have had the same kill ratio as warriors (except they can have more blasters).

So why not allow the Wyches to shoot?

Pog

Offline Arcas

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #107 on: December 25, 2004, 01:21:42 PM »
The stats were made that way because if you shot before assaulting using the TAR (which were de facto standard at that time), you lost the charge bonus attack. There was quite a division between the players if it's a good idea to include blasters to wych squads and if one should shoot before assaulting, and probably the one who made those stats belonged to the no-shooting fraction.

This shouldn't stop anyone from updating the stats though ;)

jwu

Offline count d'arling

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2005, 02:05:22 AM »
Just played few games against necrons who have almost the same statistics as the marines and found out that a squad of 10 wyches (succubus with agoniser included) with wych weapons on a raider can win a squad of 12 warriors and close combat tooled up lord with ease (all in same unit)... I lost about 2 to none of my wyches. I've played about four games and always the same result.

that I 6 really is a powerful thing!

Offline ArchonCryx

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #109 on: April 8, 2005, 11:39:14 AM »
Yeah, thatr high initiative is awesome, and is another reason why Wyches are so darn awesome! Basically, any opponents killed won't threaten the wyches at all, and Wych weapons help even more, reducing the hits of the few remaining combatents, then our very cool Dodge save kicks in and you find that Wyches can survuive a big melee quite well. I always go for the trophy rack - Ld is your enemy. Note the high I mkes wipeouts more likely when enemies fail morale- that will serve to increase the effectiveness f the wyches as will the point that shooting wont steal theircharge bonus, Blasters are again a no-brainer! I was actuallya proponent for not using Blasters back then b-c of the loss of charge bonus!
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Offline Archonbjorn

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #110 on: May 31, 2005, 01:27:38 PM »
The key to succes with combat is trying to kill all models in BtB contact before they can strike back this will result into a auto loss of combat (there needs to be a model into BtB contact) I have played with the incubi sect list a couple of times a incubi with 3 initiates shredded a whole kroot squad except the shaper. i would not try to get into BtB contact with as may models as possible instead I would go for concentrating all the models I can kill that are into BtB contact and within 2 inch of them. The combat after that you will still have a whole unit vs a weakened one. Small advantage but works for me.

Offline The Prince

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2005, 12:05:39 PM »
Thanks for this, it is great. I have to play alot of marine players and with the new rules it has been alot harder. Coupled with the new Webway Tacitica it really helps.

I used it last night on a mission vs. Ultramars and it worked out.

Great post
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Offline garglemoth

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #112 on: August 7, 2005, 05:23:37 AM »
has anyone realised in the back of the DE codex it has some DE fighting CE.
I don't know why they put the wyches against the scorpions. personally I think the scorpions would tear them to shreds. they should be banshees.
be-atch fight ;)

anyway I like the idea of this post. Warriors seem rather good to me. so do incubi.
better get some more then

Offline moc065

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #113 on: June 12, 2007, 09:19:11 AM »
Wow, holy informative thread..... Very well done to all of those that contributed stats.....
     I have a Friend who is just starting out with DE so I compiled the stats for him, and just by reading through as I compiled I think I learned some very important Lessons. Thanks guys....
     The most important thing I learned as a Saim-Hann Eldar player is that I am Never (I repeat - Never) going to let any DE charge my fragile little Eldar.... I will shoot you all from a distance and then assault you when you are weakened exessively. The days of you coming and taking slave from me are over....

PS.... Seriously, probably some of the best statistical work I've seen.
     
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Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2008, 06:09:06 PM »
ahaha moc it's not because you say never that it will never happen either.
Dark Eldar can beat eldar in speed you know :p If you're facing a good DE player avoiding assaults is nearly impossible...

The good way to beat DE with eldar is using an important advantage eldar have and DE don't. Their fairly good armor! Even with good armor they can still be very mobile and fast...
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Offline Omnichron

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2011, 08:53:44 AM »
Most of my fun games has been Eldar vs Dark Eldar, with about equal amounts of games won and lost. I find the Eldars tactics with skimmers dropping and picking up the phoenixes, to be the toughest nut to crack.

There will be assaults though  ;D

Offline Deloth Vyrr

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #116 on: October 7, 2011, 11:04:28 AM »
Most of my fun games has been Eldar vs Dark Eldar, with about equal amounts of games won and lost. I find the Eldars tactics with skimmers dropping and picking up the phoenixes, to be the toughest nut to crack.

There will be assaults though  ;D

Nice work responding to a post made 3 years ago, lol

Anyways, this data is rather obsolete wouldn't you guys think?

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #117 on: October 7, 2011, 11:46:50 AM »
[gmod]It's a sticky so threadnomancy rules don't automatically apply. Else you'd be against the wall as well. ;) If the thread is outdated then help updating it.[/gmod]
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Offline Laosk

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2012, 10:11:57 PM »
8 Wyches w/ agoniser hekatrix
Shooting - 0.8 marines killed
Charging - 2.16 marines killed
Subsequent rounds - 1.45 marines killed

10 Warriors SC and Blaster
Shooting (only SC and Blaster) - 0.99 (approx 1) marines killed
Shooting (all in rapid fire range) - 2.7 Marines killed
Charging - 1.11 marines killed
Subsequent rounds - 0.55 marines killed

Offline Plastikente

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Re: Damage statistics of warriors and wyches vs. marines
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »
EDIT: Parts of this post are no longer valid due to the arrival of 6th Edition, notably power weapons and agonisers have become much less effective against terminators due to the changes in AP for cc weapons.  I hope to update the stats when I have time.

[Original: v1.0 – 16 Apr 12]

I’m on leave from work at the moment and I had a spare morning, so I thought I’d devote it to a bit of maths (Engineers – we live exciting lives).  I started off with an individual model so that it’s easy to multiply up and make units at the end.  As WS and BS are the same, the stats apply to all Warriors, Trueborn, Wyches and Bloodbrides, including character upgrades.  Fractions are rounded to 2 decimal places, but I keep the full number for my further calculations.

Shooting

Weapon   Shots   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Splinter Rifle (Long Range)/Splinter Pistol   1   0.11   0.06   0.33
Splinter Rifle (Rapid Fire)   2   0.22   0.11   0.67
Shardcarbine   3   0.33   0.17   1
Splinter Cannon (Moving)   4   0.44   0.22   1.33
Splinter Cannon (Stationary)   6   0.67   0.33   2
Shredder   (Assume 3 hits)   0.83   0.42   1.67
Dark Lance/Blaster/Blast Pistol   1   0.56   0.37   0.56

Multiplying this up to a couple of example units gives:


10 Warriors (1 Splinter Cannon, 1 Blaster, Sybarite with Splinter Pistol & Venom Blade)

One round of shooting at range kills: 1.44 Marines, 0.72 Terminators or 4.33 Guardsmen
And within 12” kills: 2.89 Marines, 1.54 Terminators or 7.56 Guardsmen

10 Wyches (1 x Razorflails, 1 x Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Blast Pistol & Agoniser)

One round of shooting within 6” (because if you’re any further away you’ll run instead of shoot) kills: 1.33 Marines, 0.76 Terminators or 2.89 Guardsmen

[Edit: v1.1 – 20 Apr 12 – CC stats added]
   
But Wyches really shouldn’t be judged on their shooting, so the following table gives kill rates for 1 attack with various CC weapons:

Assault

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Close Combat Weapon   0.06   0.03   0.22
Venom Blade   0.14   0.07   0.37
Power Weapon   0.17   0.11   0.33
Agoniser   0.25   0.17   0.33
Razorflails   0.14   0.07   0.44

I haven’t included the Shardnet and Impaler, because their offensive effect is to act as 2 CCW.  Similarly, Hydra Gauntlets just have the net effect of adding 3.5 standard CCW attacks (on average) instead of the +1 for a second CCW.

Multiplying up with my example units gives:

10 Warriors (1 Splinter Cannon, 1 Blaster, Sybarite with Splinter Pistol & Venom Blade)

On the charge: 1.56 Marines, 0.78 Terminators or 5.48 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 0.92 Marines, 0.46 Terminators or 3.11 Guardsmen

10 Wyches (1 x Razorflails, 1 x Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Blast Pistol & Agoniser)

On the charge: 2.89 Marines, 1.61 Terminators or 8.56 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.06 Marines, 1.15 Terminators or 6 Guardsmen

The Wyches are free to shoot as well as assaulting, provided that they are close enough not to need to run, whereas the Warriors must choose between firing their Rapid Fire weapons and charging the enemy.

These stats work for any units with the same WS, BS and strength.  Want to know how a Venom with Splinter spam and Trueborn Blaster Spam will fare?  Just add it up...

Trueborn x 4 w/ Blaster x 4, Venom, SC x 2
Long range: 1.33 Marines, 0.67 Terminators or 4 Guardsmen
Within 12”: 3.56  Marines, 2.15 Terminators or 6.22 Guardsmen

Although you probably bought the Blasters to deal with vehicles – I’ll do the sums for that when I have the time.  I’m also intending to work out the effects of the various combat drugs, and perhaps kill tables for Incubi, Hellions, and anything else that takes my fancy.

No promises about exactly when though...

[Edit: v1.2 -  27 Apr 12 – Combat Drug stats added]

My next question: what effect will combat drugs have on my Wyches?  4 of the 6 drugs have a direct effect on close combat effectiveness (p26 of the codex); Adrenalight just adds attacks and can therefore be calculated from my previous tables.  The effects of the others are as follows:

Serpentin

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Close Combat Weapon   0.07   0.04   0.22
Venom Blade   0.19   0.09   0.37
Power Weapon   0.22   0.15   0.33
Agoniser   0.33   0.22   0.33
Razorflails   0.16   0.08   0.44
Note: Serpentin doesn’t aid performance against Guardsmen (or other units with the same WS) as the Wyches were already at an advantage.

Grave Lotus

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Close Combat Weapon   0.08   0.04   0.30
Venom Blade   0.14   0.04   0.37
Power Weapon   0.25   0.17   0.30
Agoniser   0.25   0.22   0.22
Razorflails   0.13   0.06   0.40

Painbringer

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Close Combat Weapon   0.09   0.05   0.33
Venom Blade   0.16   0.08   0.43
Power Weapon   0.28   0.19   0.33
Agoniser   0.38   0.25   0.33
Razorflails   0.09   0.05   0.33
Note:  Painbringer doesn’t improve the performance of Razorflails, as these already re-roll failed attempts to wound.

Taking my example Wyches (10 w/ 1 x Razorflails, 1 x Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Blast Pistol & Agoniser), we find that combat drugs have the following effect on their kill rates:

Wyches with Serpentin
On the charge: 3.79 Marines, 2.12 Terminators or 8.56 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.70 Marines, 1.52 Terminators or 6 Guardsmen

Wyches with Grave Lotus
On the charge: 3.58 Marines, 1.96 Terminators or 10.37 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.54 Marines, 1.40 Terminators or 7.27 Guardsmen

Wyches with Painbringer
On the charge: 4.23 Marines, 2.37 Terminators or 11.83 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 3.02 Marines, 1.70 Terminators or 8.33 Guardsmen

Wyches with Adrenalight
On the charge: 3.72 Marines, 2.07 Terminators or 11.11 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.89 Marines, 1.61 Terminators or 8.56 Guardsmen

So what?  Well, if you value all-out killiness over other possible benefits of the combat drugs (such as FnP from that bonus Pain Token), then Painbringer is the result to pray for when you make your sacrifices to the dice gods (or cheat).  This knowledge is also useful if you’re using Duke Sliscus (my HQ of choice) with his ability to roll twice on the drugs table and choose the one he wants.

As an aside, these tables also allow you to work out the effect of getting a second Pain Token, as Furious Charge works just like getting Grave Lotus on the charge (although this doesn’t take account of the initiative bonus, and you can’t just stack these results over the effects of the combat drugs because the maths doesn’t work that simply).
Wyches with 2 or more Pain Tokens
On the charge: 3.58 Marines, 1.96 Terminators or 10.37 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.06 Marines, 1.15 Terminators or 6 Guardsmen

More to follow when I get the time...

[Edit: v1.3 -  12 May 12 – Some more CC units]

Here are some more stats for units in assault.  I usually field these units in 5s, but my example units are 10s to make it easy to compare them to what’s gone before.

Wracks

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Poisoned CCW   0.08   0.04   0.22
Scissorhand   0.11   0.06   0.30
Flesh Gauntlet   0.08   0.04   0.22
Mindphase Gauntlet   0.06   0.03   0.22
Venom Blade   0.14   0.07   0.37
Agoniser   0.25   0.17   0.33
Electrocorrosive Whip   0.17   0.11   0.33

As an example Wrack unit, let’s take:
10 Wracks including Acothyst with Flesh Gauntlet
On the charge: 2.58 Marines, 1.29 Terminators or 6.89 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 1.75 Marines, 0.86 Terminators or 4.67 Guardsmen

So the Wracks come out better than Warriors and worse than Wyches in CC.  The limit of these particular stats though is that they don’t show effectiveness against high toughness and multi-wound enemies.  With poisoned weapons as standard, and a large number of upgrades which inflict instant death or otherwise degrade an enemy who takes a wound, Wracks really start to shine against those types of opponents.

Hellions

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Splinter Pod (2 shots)   0.22   0.11   0.67
Hellglaive   0.08   0.04   0.30

10 Hellions including Helliarch with Agoniser
Shooting: 2.22 Marines, 1.11 Terminators or 6.67 Guardsmen
On the charge: 3.25 Marines, 1.79 Terminators or 9.33 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 2.25 Marines, 1.25 Terminators or 6.33 Guardsmen

Against MEQ and TEQ, Hellions have exactly the same chances as Wracks – the differences in the example squads are all down to the squad leader upgrades.  Hellions do get combat drugs though, which are not factored into these stats.

Incubi

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Klaive   0.33   0.22   0.44
Demiklaives (+2S)   0.44   0.30   0.56
Demiklaives (+2A)   0.22   0.15   0.33

10 Incubi including Klaivex with Demiklaives
(Demiklaives +2S)
On the charge: 10.78 Marines, 7.19 Terminators or 14.22 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 7.33 Marines, 4.89 Terminators or 9.67 Guardsmen
(Demiklaives +2A)
On the charge: 10.33 Marines, 6.89 Terminators or 14 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 7.11 Marines, 4.74 Terminators or 9.67 Guardsmen

So, unsurprisingly, Incubi eat MEQ and TEQ for breakfast, although you’re unlikely to ever field them in squads of 10.  If you take Demiklaives, you are statistically better off opting for +2S instead of +2A against almost all opponents.

Mandrakes

Weapon   Kills vs MEQ   Kills vs TEQ   Kills vs GEQ
Bale Blast (2 shots)   0.22   0.11   0.89
Evil-looking blade   0.08   0.04   0.30

10 Mandrakes including Nightfiend
Shooting: 2.22 Marines, 1.11 Terminators or 8.89 Guardsmen
On the charge: 2.58 Marines, 1.29 Terminators or 9.19 Guardsmen
Subsequent rounds: 1.75 Marines, 0.88 Terminators or 6.22 Guardsmen
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:23:02 PM by Plastikente »

 


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