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Offline Satanic Joker Jester

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"top tier" tyranid lists?
« on: May 19, 2009, 10:00:30 PM »
Hello everyone, as you have seen, or may have noticed, I've posted and inquired about Nidzilla style tyranid lists as they are the most appealing to me.  Followed closely by a semi Nidzilla list, with raveners and Lictors and warriors + fex's..

But i was wondering, what are the more competitive style lists?  I've read up and I am aware of the shortcomings of Nidzilla style lists, as well as swarm style lists...so judging from this i would assume the most competitive would be a more balanced list?

What are your opinions on the "strongest" tyranid army lists?

Please keep in mind..i know that what army you face, your stratey/play style etc all factor in, but im going from a more mathhammer/theoryhammer type of view... I guess in a way what style list is powergaming?  built with the sole intention of crushing everything in its path, and devouring any opposition ( as is the tyranid way )
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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 10:18:51 PM »
I think the strongest torny lists are build around Fexs and outflanking Genestealers. The Fex's Make a Solid advancing Gun Line, as Genestealers start coming in ripping everyone apart.




I've was one talking to Nate from Bitskingdom once, and he accualy plays nids. His tourny list uses 3 units of 6 Ravenours. He placed prety good at the tourny and TRASHED last years champ who plays Ghost Eldar. (Who usely was the one trashing everyone eals.) The Ravenours just chewed threw the guy's wraith Gaurd.

I think for nids it comes down to army comp and how much your willing to spend. Nidzilllia/Genestealer shoock is uesly favored due to it's effectiveness and the fact the models are plastic/"cheap".

But if your willing to go bust on the pewter Gargoals and Ravenours can be prety nasty. It's only because of the $$$ needed for that pewter that stops people from using them.

Some people go as far as claiming Gargoals as they are now would be broken if they came in plastic.

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« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:26:17 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline jawmonkey

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 10:36:30 PM »
I think the strongest torny lists are build around Fexs and outflanking Genestealers. The Fex's Make a Solid advancing Gun Line, as Genestealers start coming in ripping everyone apart.
I went to a local tournament and had to face two such armies this last March; which I lost horribly to (my Deathwing was kitted out wrong). I'm tempted myself to invest in a few squads of stealers and a few warriors or fexes for fire support at some later date.
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Offline MaldeCaderas

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 06:37:27 AM »
Well, we have some nasty units in our arsenal;
Dakkatyrants = cheap and effective
Deathspitting warriors= 2 variants here, tl ds and +s, ds and scytals. I prefer tl deathspitters but both are deadly.
Fexes= Either for cc or ranged support. They are nasty, deadly, durable. Shooty ones tend to pay back their points more. CC ones solve problems which shooting cant, but have some issues as speed and low init, without any inv. save. Psychological factor is huge.
Gargoyles = Probably everything you can imagine on a "gaunt" base. Wings, fleshborers, bio-plasma, increased leadership with deepstrike ability. Costly in all ways, though.
Genestealers = rending nerfed, but feeder tendrils and scuttlers began something else, giving us a unit which has many tactical options.

In my opinion, there are two ways to make a list "top tier" Either by trying to create a perfect coherency and balance, using above units or by focusing on one aspect, magnifying it to an extend where it can ruin most balanced enemy armies, and while maintaining the basic "must"s such as scoring.

However after some point these lists became too popular. So some romantics tried to find the third way of reaching bliss, by findin some neat combinations, original or crazy ideas. These tend to shine and fade, and such solutions are not bright versus some situations.

say, a warrior and gaunt heavy army as I discuss in another topic, while having huge power against ork-like hoard armies, It has weaknesses against vehicle heavy armies.

There are quite-a many ways to devour enemy biomass and assimilate it into pure beauty and perfectness, I guess.
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Offline Feresy

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2009, 07:14:48 AM »
I saw an amazing list at a tournament earlier this year, a Broodlord and a LOT of Genestealers.
Almost an entire army of Troops means that you are sorted for capturing objectives, Carapace Armour and Move Through Cover means you're more than likely to be getting at least a 4+ save, and thanks to Outflank they shouldn't get too much chance to shoot you before you hit combat anyway.
Despite the fact that Rending is now perhaps not what it once was, Genestealers are almost always striking first thanks to the reviewed rules for offensive grenades and will be hitting most opponents on 3s. With so many attacks (Scything Talons all the way IMO) hitting on 3s you are very likely to roll a comfortable amount of 6s to wound and thus still draw some bonus from Rending. Even if you don't roll a lot of 6s, Toxin Sacs will increase your chance of wounding most things anyway, and people can only pass so many armour saves!
I particularly liked this list because it not only greatly contrasted to my own (a very "traditional" Nidzilla list) but also had a clear theme to it. It also spent most of the tournament on the top 5 tables!
Of course it has it's weaknesses, as do all armies (Flamers in this case), which is why it does take some careful "hiding" if you aren't going to hit combat, and well as perhaps a bit of luck :p
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:17:29 AM by Feresy »

Offline MaldeCaderas

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 02:04:57 PM »
Every weapon can hurt stealers. Adding scyting talons and toxin sacs really pump the points up, lowering numbers. Skimmers and fast vehicles as well as flyers (I am not sure about new rules though) will be hard, vehicular armies will be hard, ork swarms will be hard, flamers and heavy bolters will chew you, you will need good fleet rolls. Any opponent who knows what you they are doing will be able to spit death to your precious glass cannons.

Yet still perhaps a pure stealers list with maybe one or two sniperfexes could carry you to top places in tourneys I guess.
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Offline Satanic Joker Jester

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 09:00:34 PM »
i was thinking, a pretty competitive list could could be something like...a small squad of stealers to sit at home and hold an objective, while the rest of the army consists of a 2 ripper squads with leaping, just to tie up units quickly, some stealers to either infiltrate etc or flank, and then some nice dakka..i guess a hybrid style list, but i really like the idea of rippers, with leaping they can assault very fast, not to mention the opponent has to decide between shooting the rippers or trying to focus the carnifex's and dakka MC's closing in :S and worry about the flanking stealers...

actually i want to make a list, not sure how competitive it would be though..with some outflanking stealers, 3 lictors to engage enemies early and hopefully tie them up, dakka fex's + tyrant, maybe one ninja fex or heavy CC fex for heavy tanks, but otherwise use some raveners + flanking stealers,

 i think raveners are underrated.. i would love to field 6-9 of them in a list, along with 3 lictors and MC's, or 2 lictors, one just doesn't seem like enough ;)

Pure CC or Pure Dakka better in your opinions?  I think that Dakka is better because if facing a mech list ( eldar for example ) where they have amazing speed, it wouldn't be until the late turns in the game that you catch them, if even then :S

 unless you advanced in a sort of "net" type fashion, so that after 2-3 turns of moving+running, the enemy has no where left to go where he can't get engaged,


   

    x      x        x       x

        x       x       x

something like that, so that your charge threat range is literally half the board, but then your spread out..and are vulnerable to focused flank hits, but with 2 other MC's withing counter charge range, it might not be so bad? :S
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Offline MaldeCaderas

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 03:28:12 AM »
This works on paper where you do not calculate enemy shooting. Raveners are underrated even though everyone knows how fast and deadly, because :

You can get two stealers instead of one ravener, which more or less do the same thing and can still capture and can be mutated into different needs - which can't deepstrike but can outflank.

And because they are expensive, reducing the alredy crucial resources. with new edition you need scorers; drawing points from original Nidzilla lists or stealer shockers. Yes, stealers can score, but they are quite vulnerable to enemy shooting if they do not have cover, and to grant them cover you already have to field gaunts. This is a dilemmatic problem.

Yet still if you can focus on stealers; mutating them into same or differen configurations for about 20 pts; you can field 48 stealers into troop choices and 3 MC's. I would advice one dakkatyrant and two anti-vehicle fexes. Even with this list, you are throwing vulnerable units into enemies face - because they are cc goodness - at a 1500 pts level. Let me remind you that , say for example orks, can field 75 modelz along with some trukks, which are more or less the same strength with stealers on charge. SM will come with around 30-40 marines which have 3+ save and deadly bolters and Hbolters. Eldar? will be toying with you with their speed, even if you chose to forego some stealers to get some raveners. Because they would become primary targets.

Yet still, If any of your units made contact with almost any enemy unit, you can be sure you will kill something. But honestly, I don't think this will be enough if your opponent knows what he/she is doing.
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Offline coredump

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 03:46:34 AM »
CC warriors are just plain better than raveners....
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Offline srintuar

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2009, 09:34:37 AM »

Lets face it: lists come down to their MC's.

For scoring:
Gaunts are for the most part an inferior choice compared to genestealers, against most opponents. A pure stealer/MC list is basically immune to the downsides of synapse. Raveners, gargoyles, and hormogaunts are designed to get away and ahead, where the start running into synapse problems.

Warriors can work well enough, especially shooty warrior in cover. They are too fragile on a points basis to work in CC, imo.

Making a tyranid list:
1) Backbone
    define the number and type of MC's
2) Scoring
    choose how many scoring units, and which type
3) Filler
     fill in with topping of your choice to meet points cap


Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 09:54:51 AM »
For scoring Gaunts are superior to genestealers in every way. They are cheaper and thus more numerous and have the option to Lurk when in cover, improving their survivability. Genestealers are terrible for securing objectives
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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 10:01:42 AM »
CC warriors are just plain better than raveners....

I disagree. Ravener's have Fleet and a 12" assault range, and 5 rending attacks on the charge. (3 attacks base, plus one for sythingtalons, plus one for Chargeing.)

Warriors just have the 12" Assault Range, and get 4 Rending Attacks on the charge. (2 attacks base, plus one for sything talons, plus one for chargeing)


I feel Warrioirs for the same price fall short in comparison to Ravenours due to there pure killyness. The only thing "bad" about Ravenours is there lack of flesh hooks.

Offline FifthWindDieGermanator

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 10:17:55 AM »
I disagree. Ravener's have Fleet and a 12" assault range, and 5 rending attacks on the charge. (3 attacks base, plus one for sythingtalons, plus one for Chargeing.)

Warriors just have the 12" Assault Range, and get 4 Rending Attacks on the charge. (2 attacks base, plus one for sything talons, plus one for chargeing)

And yet Warriors exchange that 1 attack for Synapse, which is vastly more useful. Keeping everything around you in line will a) help a lot with scoring bobjectives, and b) allows those Hormagaunst residing in your Synapse bubble to come and help the Warriors, making up for that lack of attack per warrior.
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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 10:21:01 AM »
Warriors get a better armour save, immunity to instant death and access to a more impressive array of extra killy biomorphs like flesh hooks or bio-plasma. The only thing they lose to Raveners is fleet and one attack, but they are far more likely to survive for longer, so that balances out in favour of the warriors. And they're still cheaper than Raveners even when given crazy kit
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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 03:20:19 PM »
I disagree. Ravener's have Fleet and a 12" assault range, and 5 rending attacks on the charge. (3 attacks base, plus one for sythingtalons, plus one for Chargeing.)

Warriors just have the 12" Assault Range, and get 4 Rending Attacks on the charge. (2 attacks base, plus one for sything talons, plus one for chargeing)

And yet Warriors exchange that 1 attack for Synapse, which is vastly more useful. Keeping everything around you in line will a) help a lot with scoring bobjectives, and b) allows those Hormagaunst residing in your Synapse bubble to come and help the Warriors, making up for that lack of attack per warrior.


If you charge Warriors in with the gaunts, the gaunts will get a amphetamine parrotload of no retreat wounds that chould get dumped off onto the warrioirs. So Giveing Synpyses coverage to me is a mute point.

I wouldn't want them any wear near a combat with gaunts in it, because it just means there going to get steam rolled also.

The only real benefit to the rule is they can't be insent killed.

I'd rather take something more killy, them something that's abit more durable. I also find CC warrioirs get more expensive them Ravenoures fast once you make them "on par" and then give them all the survivability upgrades.

Warrioirs are only cheeper if we're talking Sences, toxic sack, Sything, Death Spiter warrioirs. Witch hands down is out best unit that gives the most "bang for the buck".
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 03:25:00 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 03:21:37 PM »
Raveners are marginally more killy than warriors and more expensive. And they die really easily. REALLY easily. CC Warriors are better
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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 03:33:59 PM »
Ravener 40
x1
Scything Talons & Rending Claws

Warrioirs 40
x1
-Sything
-Rending Claws
-Leaping
-I Gland
-WS Gland
-Bio Plasma



Both builds are exactly the Same Stat Line and exactly the same coast. The only diffrence? The Warrioir's 4th attack is bio plasma(Not rending), and the Warrior does not have fleet.


The "Better warrior"
Warriors 48
x1
-Scything
-Rending Claws
-Leaping
-I Gland
-WS Gland
-Bio Plasma
Toxin Sacks
-Extended Carnapace
-Flesh Hooks


Well more killy then Ravenous your paying out the nose in the end.

Warriors and Ravenous are on Par IMHO. None realy sticks out. In the end there are only slight diffrences that matter.

Also CC warrioirs compete for the elite slot with Shooty Warriors and Elite fexs. As I said I don't feel CC warrioirs make good synapses units, as I find there better off going "solo" then moving with the main force. It helps them attract less fire.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 03:39:37 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline coredump

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 03:53:28 PM »
Lucky, this was all covered in a previous thread... and you just ignored everything.

But, lets re-cap for our viewers at home.


40 pt ravener vs 42pt warrior (leaping, +WS, +I, ST/RC, BioP, FH)

The *only* Ravener advantages:
The warriors cost 2pts more.
When actually assaulting, the raveners have a better assault range. (19-24", warriors are at 18")

Movement:
On turns that they are not assaulting, raveners and warriors move the *same* distance (7-12")

Attacks:
They have the same number of attacks.
Ravener has one more potentially rending attack, the warrior has one attack at I10, S5, and always hits on 4+

Cover:
ravener goes on I1 into cover, warriors at I5(I10)

Ruins:
raveners *can't go* past the ground floor in ruins, warriors can go to any floor.

Synapse:
Ravaner *can* be in synapse, the warriors are *always* in synapse.
With up to a 24" assault range, the raveners can easily run out of synapse range.

Instant Death:
Synapse protects from Instant Death(Pfists, krak missiles, etc.) Important for 2W models

Instinctive Behavior:
Out of Synapse/combat, the ravener needs to test for IB.

Support:
Warriors can provide synapse to other units, the raveners can't.


Raveners are fun, and if you like them, play them. But warriors are better raveners than raveners are.
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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 05:26:56 PM »
I have found CC warrioirs are horrible for Synapses in 5th because the gaunts get in the way, and you can't dare put the warrioirs in the same combat as gaunts.

I also find CC warrioirs work better "going solo". There for I argue the only advantage synapses gives them is they don't get insent killed and don't need to take behavior cheeks.


In the end I ligit feel CC Warrioirs and Ravener are on Par.

Ravener are not Greater then CC Warrioirs
CC warrioirs are not greater then Raveners.

There are only slight differences between the two units, and witch unit you choose counts on what your army needs. Do you need something more killy, or do you need something that has more staying power.

I can not feel like either unit is "better", no matter how I wrap my head around it.

Raveners are not better then Warrioirs.
But Raveners are not worse then Warrioirs.

=/

I personally find I get the same results with both.

Offline Kivi

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Re: "top tier" tyranid lists?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 06:01:15 PM »
The *only* Ravener advantages:
The warriors cost 2pts more.
When actually assaulting, the raveners have a better assault range. (19-24", warriors are at 18")
I guess you could argue that this is more of a personal preferens then advantage, but I go with Raveners over Wariors to get more fex-places in the FOC.  And they can also deepstrike if that matters to anyone.

 


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