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Offline xyclos

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2003, 05:08:56 PM »
"Nice attitude.  Life's hard, so let's give up and crawl back into our shell.  Maybe if we don't say anything they'll just go away.

In the future, please don't run for political office.  We have enough people with this defeatest attitude there now."


It's not a defeatest attitude, it's just accepting the facts and what history has proven many times over.
If we would've kept our dirty hands out of that area in the first place, we'd be in a better position.


Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2003, 05:50:33 PM »
"Nice attitude.  Life's hard, so let's give up and crawl back into our shell.  Maybe if we don't say anything they'll just go away.

In the future, please don't run for political office.  We have enough people with this defeatest attitude there now."


It's not a defeatest attitude, it's just accepting the facts and what history has proven many times over.
If we would've kept our dirty hands out of that area in the first place, we'd be in a better position.

No.  Entirely the opposite.  When you live in a drug infested neighborhood, does closing your shutters make the crackhouses dissapear?

Ignoring problems or putting them off, only leads to bigger problems down the road.  Isolationism is a recipe for miserable failure.  History proved this many times in the 20th century.

The right solution is to get involved, show muslims that we do care, and help them out of their situation.  That doesn't mean I support a blank welfare check, but if this experiment in Iraq does work, we'll make a lot of new freinds.  If it fails, and I believe it will not with the proper political backing, then we are no worse off.

I once destroyed an entire Dwarven Army with Anzripal's Black Horror on turn two.

Liberals and socialists? ... We don't need no stinkin' liberals and socialists.

Offline xyclos

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2003, 02:13:41 AM »
"No.  Entirely the opposite.  When you live in a drug infested neighborhood, does closing your shutters make the crackhouses dissapear?"

Well. if you started something, I guess it would be fair to say that you should finish it.

"If it fails, and I believe it will not with the proper political backing, then we are no worse off."

Yeah, like nothing ever happened eh?


Offline Larandil

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2003, 03:20:42 AM »
Sorry. There'll be some heavy quoting ...


It was not meant to be the front for any one nation to draw up the master plan of what the world ought to be like and break the news to the others.

I see.  So you think France should be removed from the security council for violating this mandate?
The last time France came up with a master plan (for Europe, mind you ...) was at the start of the 19th century, drawn by Napoleon Bonaparte.

But wasn't it the president of the Uinited States of America who put it this way: "I'm going to war against Iraq. Back me up or get out of my way!"

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The spirit of democracy in the U.N. died a quiet death with the right to block any decision reserved for the Big Five with the Nukes - the U.S.A., Russia, France, the U.K. and the People's Republic of China.
But there's quite a number of islamic nations in Northern Africa and Asia that could easily out-vote the U.S. if the U.N. decided by a simple (and democratic) count of "one nation - one vote".

Yes and some of those "nations" are no bigger than Rhode Island and change governments on a monthly basis.  I'm glad there's such a wealth of valuable political experience in the U.N.  Jesus, it's like having a blind guy be a driving instructor.
I see. What conditions would a "nation" have to meet to qualify as such in your book?

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If the weight of votes were to be decided by the sheer number of inhabitants a nation can field, U.N. politics would be a game between India and China with all others on the sideline.

And if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he jumped either.  

The fact is, it's not decided that way so let's throw out the hypotheticals and stick to the fact that the U.N. is not doing what it supposed to do because countries like France abuse it as leverage for their own foreign policies.  Instead of using their security council power for the greater good, they instead wield it in attempts to improve their own position in the world.  They make no distinction between the U.N. as an organization and an instrument of their own foreign policy.

The point I tried to make was: who is the authority that defines the goals of such a "Higher Good"? And why would the others willingly bend down to that source of authority?
"Axis of Antidemocracy. Next stop: India - abandon the antidemocratic caste system of yours. Or else!"
(No - I don't intend to justify the Indian caste system. But if the Indians are so happy with the religion it is based on - what gives me or anyone else the right to press them into changing into something alien to their culture but compatible with mine?)

There's a reason why nations cling to the idea of sovereignty, with themselves determining what's best for them. Especially over here in Europe, where each and every nation save for Switzerland and the United Kingdom has been occupied at least once by a neighbouring country over the course of the last two centuries. And in Africa and Asia where most of them have gained freedom from colonial status only after World War II.

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Just how would the U.N. press the U.S. of A. into granting some amount of legal counsil to the prisoners of Guantanamo? Like seeing their ambassadors, speaking with lawyers and such? All those basic rights that you expect to get from even the most remote banana republic on this planet ...

Beats me.  Personally, I blame it on the Lybians for being in charge of the Human Rights Committee.  Damn slackers!!!!

The facts are that the Taliban have no ambassador and  POW's do not get the right to speak with attourneys unless tried in a military court of law.  So when the war is declared "over" they'll get released.  If the Red Cross would like to arrange a visit from one of their loved ones, that would be okay with me as long as the visitor was searched and any conversation recorded.  It might just uncover some more terrorists.
Formalities ... war is something happening between nations. Which Al-Quaeda is not and never was. While it's popular to declare a war on drugs, AIDS, terrorism, whatnot - a man must have been a member of a regular fighting force to claim Prisoner of War status. Otherwise he's a criminal, with another set of rights under American jurisdiction.
So the poor suckers rounded up somewhere in Afghanistan "because they're here!" and sent to Guantanamo end up getting the Worst of Both Worlds: neither do they have any rights due to a criminal nor any rights granted to a POW, because there is no such thing as a nation they were fighting for ...

And they have no rights at all "under American jurisdiction" because they're not held prisoner within U.S. borders. Nice catch.
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Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2003, 09:42:31 AM »
Funny, I distinctly remember something very different.  In fact, if I recall, we asked the UN several times for a definite timetable on the Iraq thing but kept getting vetoed due to French interests.  Naturally they (or Germany) didn't want to be exposed as selling restricted items (chem suits, atropine injectors anyone?) to Iraq or profiting from the UN involvement there, so it was in their best interests to veto every reasonable resolution attempt.  

However, you shouldn't fault the U.S. for going to war with Iraq.  The French put us into the position so that we had no other options.

Well to be a nation it should have recognized soveriegnty and at the very least be a champion of the proper committee.  You obviously can't have a dicatorial country like China running the "free speech committee".  
Perhaps we should put a qualifier on it so that voting rights are given to those with at least 50 years of stability?  Oh you'll balk at this, I know.  But unlike you, I don't feel that Botswanna needs to decide my country's fate.  Somehow I'm betting a lot of Britons wouldn't go for this either.

As you point out, "why would others [countries] willingly bend down to that [UN] authority?"  Beats me?  I didn't see anyone else do it, so I find it rather humorous that people overseas would complain the U.S. doesn't either.  Somehow you champion the U.S. (which you seem to have great distrust and hatred for) should bow down to the U.N. while other countries [namely Iraq] can blantantly ignore its' mandates ... that makes no sense.  Is the purpose of the UN to allow for selective ignoring of laws?

Oh I see, you think it fine that European nations can defend their sovereignty when attacked, but the U.S. cannot because it has never been occupied by someone.  Ethnocentrism anyone????

War is something that happens between nations? [Big Red Buzzer]  NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNTTTTTT!!!!!!!  Wrong!  A war can be defined as an act of military conflict between two (or more) parties.  They do not, in fact have to be nations.  My country declared war on the Barbary Coast Pirates in the past, just as your country went to war with other pirates that flew no country's colors.  Al Queda is nothing more than the modern day equivalent of 14th century group of brigands.  

And you complain they should have a trial?  I suppose we could have a mock trial like those the English had for their pirates, followed by a nice English public hanging.  And which is more humane?  Mock trial & hanging.  No trial and life imprisonment.

Get off your soapbox hypocrite.

I once destroyed an entire Dwarven Army with Anzripal's Black Horror on turn two.

Liberals and socialists? ... We don't need no stinkin' liberals and socialists.

Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2003, 11:45:07 AM »
"No.  Entirely the opposite.  When you live in a drug infested neighborhood, does closing your shutters make the crackhouses dissapear?"

Well. if you started something, I guess it would be fair to say that you should finish it.

"If it fails, and I believe it will not with the proper political backing, then we are no worse off."

Yeah, like nothing ever happened eh?



Oh yes that's right Xyclos, the U.S. is the Great Satan of the World!  We imprison people without cause, we exploit them, we don't care about them, we want them all to be mind controlled enslaved puppets, blah, blah, blah.  We are the cause of all the world's evils!!!!   ::)

Silly me, and I heard Baghdad was a shiny city of alabaster ...  too bad we destroyed all it's infrastructure.  ::)  [Note: Infrastructure is defined as road networks, electrical grids, water and sewer, etc. - NOT as a guy on a bike pedaling a generator.]  The fact is that 30 years of neglect from Saddam's regime and attacks by loyal Baathists and foreign terrorists have a lot to do with the cagey infrastructure and killing of innocents.

I know this is tough for you but turn off Al Jazeera for two minutes, fart loudly to clear your head of propoganda and think.

Has any world problem ever been solved due to non-involvement?  Or have they become simply larger problems?  Just give me one example that was solved.

I once destroyed an entire Dwarven Army with Anzripal's Black Horror on turn two.

Liberals and socialists? ... We don't need no stinkin' liberals and socialists.

Offline xyclos

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2003, 12:50:39 PM »
I don't even watch Al Jazeera.

"fart loudly to clear your head of propoganda and think."

I already did. I didn't subscribe to daily supplements of in-your-face-fake-partriotism/pro-war propaghanda.

"Has any world problem ever been solved due to non-involvement?  Or have they become simply larger problems? "

We've been involved in enough fiascos already.  

Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2003, 12:57:57 PM »
And as usual when presented with the club o' logic, there is nothing but silence from the other side ...

Xyclos, get up off the ground man.  You look terrible begging not to get hit again in the fetal position.
I once destroyed an entire Dwarven Army with Anzripal's Black Horror on turn two.

Liberals and socialists? ... We don't need no stinkin' liberals and socialists.

Offline Larandil

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2003, 01:36:42 PM »
Say: with that remarkable talent of yours to twist around another's words - why don't you enter into politics?

On second thought: don't. Those wimp countries from Old Europe have some experience with skillful demagogues coming to power ...
However, you shouldn't fault the U.S. for going to war with Iraq.  The French put us into the position so that we had no other options.

Great. "Shift Blame 101: Point your finger and accuse: They made me do it!"

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Perhaps we should put a qualifier on it so that voting rights are given to those with at least 50 years of stability?  Oh you'll balk at this, I know.  But unlike you, I don't feel that Botswanna needs to decide my country's fate.  Somehow I'm betting a lot of Britons wouldn't go for this either.
Ah ... I see the fraternity principle at work. "You want to join? Fine. These are the rules: you're on probation for xx years, beahve like we the grown-ups tell you to, and after that you'll be a full member and can command the next generation of applicants. Deal?"
Sovereignty means that Botswana has a vote in matters concerning the world as a whole, not for internal affairs of the U.S. A. - or Germany - or South Africa.
It also means that neither South Africa nor Germany or the U.S. A. tell the Botswana government how to run its country unless specifically asked for help.
It would be another thing if all the world (read: the entire U.N. or at least an majority of it) agreed that Botswana can't go on like that.
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As you point out, "why would others [countries] willingly bend down to that [UN] authority?"  Beats me?  I didn't see anyone else do it, so I find it rather humorous that people overseas would complain the U.S. doesn't either.
Quite the other way. I dare to call it hypocrisy when a nation ignores the U.N. as far as possible and then condemns another nation for doing likewise. But as the romans said: "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi."

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Somehow you champion the U.S. (which you seem to have great distrust and hatred for) should bow down to the U.N. while other countries [namely Iraq] can blantantly ignore its' mandates ... that makes no sense.  Is the purpose of the UN to allow for selective ignoring of laws?
Another funny thing. I don't hate the United States of America.
They put wings on my imagination with the F-104 and gave it a direction with the Apollo missions ... and I'll miss Johnny Cash.
Yet I admit that I am somewhat disturbed by its current administration.
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Oh I see, you think it fine that European nations can defend their sovereignty when attacked, but the U.S. cannot because it has never been occupied by someone.  Ethnocentrism anyone????
I draw a fine line between "I'll defend my country against a gang of religious nuts that believe our Way of Life will extinguish theirs, eventually." and "I'll settle some old scores by blaming countries I don't like to back up those religious nuts and to build nuclear, biological and chemical weapons to sell to them. After all, we've been drawing up plans for just such an occasion ever since we gave it a pass in 1992!"

Just so you know: back in the 1980s when a lot of civilians and off-duty G.I.s died in the bombing of a Berlin discotheque and the Reagan administration called an airstrike on Tripolis/Libya in return - because the Lybian "secret" police had broadcasted "STRRRIKE!" back to their home base ...
well, I supported that. Revenge, okay, but I could understand.
When the Israelis took out the OSIRAQ Iraqi nuclear facility just prior to completion - I supported that. That was a pre-emptive strike all right.

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Get off your soapbox hypocrite.

Step off yours and meet me at the O.K. Corral. "Do you feel lucky, punk?"
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Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2003, 04:35:54 PM »
I did consider law and politics.  I don't think I'd want fame though.  Not my style.  I'd much rather be wealthy and unknown.  

Hmmm okay.  And just where exactly was the U.N. when Britain and Argentinia went to war?  The U.N. is about as powerful as a turtle on it's back.  The entire reason they don't do anything to stop the violence is because they cannot.  5,000 peacekeepers from anywhere are no more capable of interceeding in US policy any more than they would have been with the UK's.  And they certainly have done nothing to stem the tide of terrorism from the Mideast.  If anything they have rewarded it by recognizing Arafat.  This hardly seems a sound reason to follow their lead.

My memory's a little foggy on the whole ignoring the UN thing, but if I recall, I don't believe the UN did squat when in 1998 Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  Oh more sanctions - which he passed onto his people and  complained enough so that the French begged to get them lifted.  I guess it was interfering with their oil revenues.  

You draw a fine line? I do as well.  Except unlike you I do see it as the religious nuts started the whole jihad thing.  I didn't see my local minister screaming for blood in the name of God prior or after 9/11.  

While dredging up the Iraq vendetta explanation makes for a good conspiracy story, I am not going to feel sorry for the ousting of a dictator that openly supported Palestinian terrorists.  He was merely part of the larger problem of terrorism.  A problem festered by a politically controlled Arab press in theocratic societies.  

I suppose the only way you would be in favor of any military action whatsoever would have been if Britain had been the nation attacked.  I guess they didn't show enough live pictures of people leaping to their deaths overseas from the WTC on the BBC, eh?  You know, about 200 of those were your citizens.  Perhaps you don't feel that's enough to warrant military action, many of us in the States did.

FYI, it would have not mattered if the current administration were the Gore Administration or the Bush Administration.  If after 9/11 there were no retaliation plans it would have been the equivalent of political suicide.  People would have demanded action.  I don't care how much of a pacifist someone claims to be, when any country takes a punch in the nose, they will hit back, especially when their citizens demand it.

If you're going to go into a Western motif, at least get in the right mood. *Music from Good Bad and the Ugly* *Draws - Fans trigger* *Larandil lies motionless*  *WAH AH WAH AH WAAAAAH - WAAH WAAH WAAH*  
I once destroyed an entire Dwarven Army with Anzripal's Black Horror on turn two.

Liberals and socialists? ... We don't need no stinkin' liberals and socialists.

Offline Larandil

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2003, 03:52:18 AM »
Hmmm okay.  And just where exactly was the U.N. when Britain and Argentinia went to war?
Neither Argentina nor Britain called their little war a war - heck, they don't even speak of that war in the same terms. One side fought over the Islas Malvinas and the other over the Falklands. Even to U.N. standards the situation would have been clear - Argentina had invaded the territory of another nation. My guess is Mrs. Thatcher's advisors told her that
a) the United Nations would back up Great Britain but would need time to get their act together. And Great Britain as a former colonial power could count on seeing a couple of decolonized countries voting against her, just for spite.
b) the Argentinian junta would probably ignore any U.N. resolution anyway.
c) the Argentinians would make good use of every day that passed by digging in and fortifying the islands they just had grabbed.
So time was a factor to cut down the impending body count, and the Royal Navy started its engines.

But there's something funny: had the Junta negotiated with Great Britain instead of launching its invasion force, they might have got the islands ... Great Britain had almost forgot about them.
Instead the Junta decided to quell inner unrest by a little campaign against an enemy half way around the globe. Hell what could go wrong?
They lost. And it spelt the end of their rule.

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The U.N. is about as powerful as a turtle on it's back.  The entire reason they don't do anything to stop the violence is because they cannot.  5,000 peacekeepers from anywhere are no more capable of interceeding in US policy any more than they would have been with the UK's.
That's right. There never was such a thing as a "United Nations Army". The only muscle the U.N. has is what its members decide to lend it. No matter what you think you know: there were not only U.S. soldiers involved in stemming the North Korean tide in the 1950's. Although it probably wouldn't have worked but for General Douglas MacArthur and his landing at Inchon.

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And they certainly have done nothing to stem the tide of terrorism from the Mideast.  If anything they have rewarded it by recognizing Arafat.  This hardly seems a sound reason to follow their lead.
Like most people, the U.N. have discovered that prior to the rise of fundamentalism, the Mideast terror was fueled by the Palestinian situation. With about any resolution concerning Palestinians and Israel blocked by the U.S. - I believe Israel holds the undisputed record when it comes to ignoring U.N. resolutions.

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While dredging up the Iraq vendetta explanation makes for a good conspiracy story, I am not going to feel sorry for the ousting of a dictator that openly supported Palestinian terrorists.  He was merely part of the larger problem of terrorism.  A problem festered by a politically controlled Arab press in theocratic societies.
Hello? Clear your brain - you've recommended a way to do this in an earlier post ...
As far as I know there was not a single Palestinian on a 9/11 plane. And no Iraqis, either. Saudis, yes. Yemenites, sure. Algerians, even.
Al-quaeda recruits among young men disappointed by the Western way of life as they perceive it ... first they turn to the preachers, then they encounter the radical ones eager to fill an empty soul with their purpose: "Fight the Jihad! Kill the Heathens! Go straight to Heaven!"
Palestinians don their bomb belts and go blasting Israeli civilians. Despiccable in itself, but not related to the WTC flights.
But supporting the Palestinians is a political tool to raise the popularity of a regime within the Arab "community" that otherwise has nothing to offer its neighbours.
All those arabs that went to Iraq prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom to fight didn't go there to fight for Saddam ... they came to fight against Americans. The nation perceived as the pinnacle of Western civilisation, Superpower No. 1, cultural dominator. "The Great Satan", in short - or "The Whore of Babylon", to use something more consistent with Christian terminology.    
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I suppose the only way you would be in favor of any military action whatsoever would have been if Britain had been the nation attacked. I guess they didn't show enough live pictures of people leaping to their deaths overseas from the WTC on the BBC, eh?  You know, about 200 of those were your citizens.  Perhaps you don't feel that's enough to warrant military action, many of us in the States did.
U.S. military action against Taliban Afghanistan to destroy the established Al-Quaeda structures enjoyed a wide political and military support all through the U.N. - it's Turks, Dutch and Germans that patrol the streets of Kabul these days.
But now the Taliban are crawling back out of their hideouts in the Pakistani borderlands (and the cities - General Musharraf isn't that much in control of his country). Afghanistan is still a long way from being even the land it was prior to 1980.

But with Bin Laden gone under deep cover (or maybe he is dead - without a body found he'll be haunting the U.S. for at least one generation, so it doesn't make much of a difference) the Bush advisors came to the conclusion that this was a good time to finish off the Fat Man in Baghdad.

The Arab press is under tight political control, true enough. But while islamic fundamentalists are on the rise, they are not in charge elsewhere than in Iran. Not yet, that is - they're rising in power all through North Africa and the Near and Middle East.
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FYI, it would have not mattered if the current administration were the Gore Administration or the Bush Administration.  If after 9/11 there were no retaliation plans it would have been the equivalent of political suicide.  People would have demanded action.  I don't care how much of a pacifist someone claims to be, when any country takes a punch in the nose, they will hit back, especially when their citizens demand it.
As I've stated before: gunning for Al-Quaeda and their Taliban supporters was a thing to do. Riding the wave to settle old scores is another.
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Offline Eldanesh

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2003, 12:07:13 PM »
I generally stay out of the political threads because I get too frustrated by both the 'rooters' (yay, American plutocratcy) and the 'psuedo-communists' being equally uninformed, and all this does is lead to these endless posts and time consuming research to back my points (since that's the kind of guy I am). I really think I'm gonna start a sticky post to the Discussion Board that's an all encompassing politcal thread, because that's all any individual politcal topic devolves into.

That said, and getting back on topic, I came across this very interesting article that I think you all might find thought provoking about the $87 Billion bankroll that president Gump has just asked the millionaires in congress for.

This is the nail in the Iraq War's coffin for any sane, thinking individual, regardless of their political stripe (thanks to TomPaine.com and the Center for American Progress)...

To get some perspective, here are some real-life comparisons about what $87    billion means:

$87 Billion Is More Than The Combined Total Of All State Budget Deficits In The United States.

The Bush administration proposed absolutely zero funds to help states deal with these deficits, despite the fact that their tax cuts drove down state revenues.  [Source: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities]

$87 Billion Is Enough To Pay The 3.3 Million People Who Have Lost Jobs Under George W. Bush $26,363 Each!

The unemployment benefits extension passed by Congress at the beginning of this year provides zero benefits to "workers who exhausted their regular, state unemployment benefits and cannot find work." All told, two-thirds of unemployed workers have exhausted their benefits. [Source: Center on Budget and Policy Priorities]

$87 Billion Is More Than DOUBLE The Total Amount The Government Spends On Homeland Security.

The U.S. spends about $36 billion on homeland security. Yet, Sen. Warren Rudman (R-N.H.) wrote "America will fall approximately $98.4 billion short of meeting critical emergency responder needs" for homeland security without a funding increase. [Source: Council on Foreign Relations]

$87 Billion Is 87 Times The Amount The Federal Government Spends On After School Programs.

George W. Bush proposed a budget that reduces the $1 billion for after-school programs to $600 million -- cutting off about 475,000 children from the program. [Source: The Republican-dominated House Appropriations Committee]

$87 Billion Is More Than 10 Times What The Government Spends On All Environmental  Protection.

The Bush administration requested just $7.6 billion for the entire Environmental Protection Agency. This included a 32 percent cut to water quality grants, a 6 percent reduction in enforcement staff, and a 50 percent cut to land acquisition and conservation. [Source: Natural Resources Defense Council]
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Offline Surface

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2003, 03:16:32 PM »
A couple of points,

Firstly 87 billion is indeed a lot of money but so what.  Would you rather America didn't spend it and just pulled out of Iraq leaving chaos in its wake?  Or perhaps you would rather America choose not to topple a ruthless dictator who tortures his citizens and attempts genocide with WMDs because its just too expensive?  Is it right to consider money before ethics, in world politics?

And before people start bleating about oil based ulterior motives let me just ask this, if the war was about oil why attempt to annex it in a manner that will cost you many times over, the gains you stand to make from increased control.  If some one can show me mathematically how the Americans plan to recoup 87 billion via monopolising oil in Iraq then I will reconsider, but by my estimates even if The US literally stole all of Iraq’s oil at peak production and sold it for full market price, it would be over three years before they managed break even.

Furthermore America has been involved in military operations in several countries in the last decade or so and has annexed no natural resources to my knowledge.  What did they steal from Bosnia, Somalia, Afghanistan etc?

I am not a student of politics and my views may not be that informed or sophisticated but it seems to me that America is either being accused of starting wars to steal money or starting wars that cost money, just as Bush is either being described as a semi literate moron or an evil machiavellian election stealer.

I am not a natural conservative so am not arguing from a position of political bias, all I am asking is that people be a little even handed.
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Offline Godhead's Lament

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2003, 05:33:58 PM »
you know what's reeeeally funny? The US already has a few trillion in defecit and corporate debt built up. The gov't pays a few hundred thousand dollars every hour on interest on that. haha, no joke.
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Offline xyclos

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2003, 01:13:17 PM »
"Firstly 87 billion is indeed a lot of money but so what?"

We have stuff in the US to take care of already, and it's not getting taken care of.
Just like Eldanesh pointed out. We could be doing better things.

but, business as usual I guess.


Now we're paying even more money to train these guys for a 'built-from-scratch' army?
Didn't we do this before?

We'll be dealing with them as a problem later on down the road.


Offline laun mo R

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2003, 03:39:37 AM »
It's called
                     WoT: the hell

We are not the face of change
 or the signature on the check.

yes We could all spend the money better.
but money isn't going to fix this.

the problems are many, my favorites:
terrorism forces a reaction, usually worse the the terror.
The USA has lost a generation or two is wars,  
the Middle East  has lost its future.
    picture Viet Nam vets running wall street

this world has spun for a long long time and yet
none can agree.

don't kill for less than survival
don't steal / don't horde (denying is theft)

I am frustrated, tired and "powerless" to help.
      truly the voice of the silent unvoting dolt :-X



2X2L this is ZQ  OVER
IS there anyone on the air. . .
. . . anyone?. . . Anyone?

Offline spleenman

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2003, 03:18:49 PM »
I'm glad to see you ride the fence Eldanesh ...  ::)

I think it's important to note that of the estimated $87 billion, $66 billion was being requested to stay in the United States.  So that money will directly help our economy in some manner.  

As far as water quality projects go, I work in that industry, so I think I know a little about it.  There may be some projects put off a year or two, but if people included in sewer districts wouldn't be-atch about their $37 /month sewer bills (while they spend $50-$90 / month on cable TV) it really wouldn't make a big impact.  Grants for projects are rare, so even in the best cases normally the money borrowed is a low interest loan.

Even if the EPA is given $8.7 billion / year in a budget I'd say the money is wasted on tons of bureacratic red tape since the entire U.S. need for clean water each year is estimated at only about $2-3 billion per year.  Seems to me if EPA got rid of some of their duplicate and triplicate levels of bureacracy (I used to work with them, so I know) you would have a lot more money available for such projects.  More money isn't needed.  Smarter spending is.

Also just curious.  Of the 3.3 estimated non-working victims of unemployment, how many were previously employed in the hotel, restaurant or airline industries?  Weren't a lot of these types of jobs lost after 9/11?  I'd like to know how many, wouldn't you?

Also there is one statistic you failed to mention.  The estimated amount of revenue lost due to the 9/11 attacks in NYC alone has been estimated at $83-$97 billion.
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Offline laun mo R

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2003, 01:48:53 AM »
I think this falls under.
"an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
problem is there is no market for the prevention.

until its too late, there is no need
2X2L this is ZQ  OVER
IS there anyone on the air. . .
. . . anyone?. . . Anyone?

Offline The Bladesinger

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2003, 08:17:26 AM »
I just want to say, Eldanesh and Larandil, that I salute you.

*bows and takes off helmet*

Why? Because I am getting pretty sick and tired of the patriotism and endless and shoddy Dubya defense layed out by one of our members.

By the way Eldanesh, I see you read he words of Michael Moore, good, he speaks the truth.

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Offline Caligua t3h Liffguard

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Re:87 billion? wtf?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2003, 09:20:57 AM »
Quote
Firstly 87 billion is indeed a lot of money but so what.  Would you rather America didn't spend it and just pulled out of Iraq leaving chaos in its wake?  Or perhaps you would rather America choose not to topple a ruthless dictator who tortures his citizens and attempts genocide with WMDs because its just too expensive?  Is it right to consider money before ethics, in world politics?

In answer to your questions, yes, yes and yes.

For the first yes, I do not think that America should have gotten involved in the first place. It should cut its losses and get out. Obviously it will need to be done with a bit more tact but that's the gist of it.

As for the second yes, tough luck Iraqis. What Saddam does to his people is of no concern of mine. I am interested in the welfare of my nation (Britain), not of Iraq. Politics should have nothing to do with morals or idealism. Politics should be the art of the pragmatic, not the idealistic.

As for the third yes, I repeat, morals and ethics shouls play no part in politics, pargmatism should.
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