Author Topic: 3rd world countries: The problem and the answer (Read 5393 times)

Wraithboss · « **Reply #40 on:** March 19, 2002, 01:00:12 PM »

Quote from: Cheantoa right now... on March 19, 2002, 02:35:07 AM

again, and put lots of thought into the answer everyone, what would happen if we completely withdrew all our support, stopped going there, stopped getting stuff from there, cut it completely off from the rest of the world. What would happen?

I say Wars would happen, especially in the middle east.
They would annihllate each other within a couple of years, given that they now have access to Weapons of Mass Destruction...
The U.S. is in a Catch-22, if we render aid we are criticised for meddling in their affairs. If we do nothing, we are turning a blind eye to people in need! Which way is it? It can really only be one way or another! Pick one, and be done with it...
You know, even if the U.S. bought every house-hold in the Mid-east a Giant,Flat-screen, Plasma-filled, Jumbo-screen, Wall-mounted Television set, with a complete Dolby Surround-sound System, with liquid-cooled, metel-coned, Merantz speakers, those same people would b!tch because they didn't like what was playing!!!
I'm a bit cynical about the whole deal, actually...

`Boss!

Matrinix · « **Reply #41 on:** March 19, 2002, 03:09:01 PM »

Honestly I'd have to agree with the nuking.... maybe not nuking (cus I care about the environment too!!) but if whoeve was in charge were that sick to take so many lives, go for it... It would end the starvation, poverty, and suffering of everyone in the mid-east... we would be like doing them a favor of ending thier suffering but on the other hand we'd look like mass murderers and probably make a ton of enemies... What would happen then?

Wraithboss · « **Reply #42 on:** March 19, 2002, 03:45:17 PM »

Quote from: Matrinix on March 19, 2002, 03:09:01 PM

Honestly I'd have to agree with the nuking.... maybe not nuking (cus I care about the environment too!!) but if whoeve was in charge were that sick to take so many lives, go for it... It would end the starvation, poverty, and suffering of everyone in the mid-east... we would be like doing them a favor of ending thier suffering but on the other hand we'd look like mass murderers and probably make a ton of enemies... What would happen then?

Well I hate to break the news to you, but if you eliminated thousands of people (or even just one...) because you couldn't be bothered to render aid to them, you'd BE a murderer!

On the other hand, there's an Army recruiter right here that wants to talk to you...something about a career, he says... $:-\$

`Boss!

Zim · « **Reply #43 on:** March 19, 2002, 09:03:01 PM »

I say we go back to the days of MacArthur's propaganda bombs.

USA A-OK!
I want be G.I. Joe!
Betty Grable have nice gams!

TheMightyPikachu · « **Reply #44 on:** March 19, 2002, 09:57:58 PM »

?
?
never heard of em

although the genocide of africa came to mind, it just aint right! teaching them to fish... and teach em not to over fish while theyre at it (save the tree's damnmit! we need air to breath and pretty flowers to look at. Sometimes i thikn trees are worth more than people are)

Cheantoa · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2002, 04:47:58 AM »

Trees are worth A LOT more than some people I know... (not on this board though)

The GrimSqueaker · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2002, 12:24:22 PM »

Quote from: Matrinix on March 19, 2002, 03:09:01 PM

we would be like doing them a favor of ending thier suffering but on the other hand we'd look like mass murderers and probably make a ton of enemies... What would happen then?

Of course, if this were justified then the reverse would also be true. They would be doing us a favour by ending our suffering and godless ways. Look at the world from other viewpoints. We're the ones who need help, apparently. Thus by killing us they're actually helping us. Becareful of setting double standards, what you say is right for other people must also be right for us.

The GrimSqueaker · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2002, 12:37:39 PM »

Quote from: Brutal Moon on March 19, 2002, 02:35:07 AM

again, and put lots of thought into the answer everyone, what would happen if we completely withdrew all our support, stopped going there, stopped getting stuff from there, cut it completely off from the rest of the world. What would happen?

You mean no US imports/exports? Is the US completely self-sufficient? I think they are in food but they certainly are not in fuels. If memory serves, at least half of the POL consumed is imported from lands foreign. Without those imports the remaining fuel stocks would be vastly more expensive. How long would US consumers put up with paying $5-10 a gallon, or having fuel shortages?

I'd hate to be the one telling US industry that as of a certain date all international markets are closed. There would be more than blood running in the streets.

How about airlines? They screamed bloody murder when domestic flights were restricted. Think of how they'd respond if told their entire international fleet was now redundant.

How about the stock exchange? No foreign investment at all? No investment by the US population off-shore? I don't think that'll carry.

Then we have off-shore assets. For example - factories and interests in other countries (like pipelines, refineries). Do these need to be sold off immediately and all workers bought back to US soil?

I can not see total isolationisim ever working. The US needs the rest of the world is the same way the rest of the world needs the US. No-one can truly do it on their own. The world economy means we all need each other.

Zim · « **Reply #48 on:** March 20, 2002, 02:15:26 PM »

No one laughed at my M*A*S*H references... I'm sad...

Anyway, the whole reason that America works so well is BECAUSE we are so multi-national and diverse. If not of race or religion, then at least diverse of oppinion. This board is a good example. Even in western-European states, dissention of oppinion is neither tolerated nor encouraged to the extent that it is in the United States.

*flag raises behind him, trumpets begin to blare, chlidren humming America the Beautiful*

For, in this country, built upon a foundation of equality and multi-culturalism, we have the power of perspective like no other. From the intellentsia of New England, to the strong-backed working man of the Mid-West, to the social conciousness of the West Coast, to the rich heritage and dignity of the South, we are diverse in ideology but united in purpose.

*Children with sparklers walk in behind him, humming slightly louder*

As fallible human beings we know that no one belief holds all the answers. It is only through this diversity that we can overcome the obstacles that stand before us. We are a true "Nation of the World." There is no point of view that goes unexplored in this country that I love.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

*children leave the stage to make way for 100-man choir, ending the speach with a rousing...*

FROM SEA TO SHINING SEA!!!

Wraithboss · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2002, 10:00:46 AM »

The problem, as I see it Zim, is that, while what you you said still holds true in theory, it is no longer true in practice.
There are MANY foreigners who are IN America, but not OF America, and vertainly not FOR America. A stark example: One evening my wife stopped for gas on her way home from work. As she waited in line to pay, the lady in front of her noticed that the Middle-eastern man behind the counter ( about 20-22 years old) was wearing a T-shirt that said "Jeruselem is my home". Then the bomb dropped: The woman said to the man, naively, "Oh you're an Isreali?" Ohhhhhh crap...

The guy became infuriated, shouted at the woman that he was Palestinian, not and Isreali pig (HUUUGE insult, you know...), and that he sent nearly every dollar he made home, to help KILL the Isrealis!
What the hell is this guy doing here? Work Visa? If a person wants to come here from another country and ,still keeping their own cultural traditions, "assimilate", and become a funtional/contributing member of our society, that's great. But if they want to come here, work in their Uncles store, get paid under the table to avoid Taxes, then use our money to fight their wars, then they can kiss my @ss.

Zim · « **Reply #50 on:** March 21, 2002, 07:47:02 PM »

Quote from: Wraithboss on March 21, 2002, 10:00:46 AM

The problem, as I see it Zim, is that, while what you you said still holds true in theory, it is no longer true in practice.
There are MANY foreigners who are IN America, but not OF America, and vertainly not FOR America. A stark example: One evening my wife stopped for gas on her way home from work. As she waited in line to pay, the lady in front of her noticed that the Middle-eastern man behind the counter ( about 20-22 years old) was wearing a T-shirt that said "Jeruselem is my home". Then the bomb dropped: The woman said to the man, naively, "Oh you're an Isreali?" Ohhhhhh crap...

The guy became infuriated, shouted at the woman that he was Palestinian, not and Isreali pig (HUUUGE insult, you know...), and that he sent nearly every dollar he made home, to help KILL the Isrealis!
What the hell is this guy doing here? Work Visa? If a person wants to come here from another country and ,still keeping their own cultural traditions, "assimilate", and become a funtional/contributing member of our society, that's great. But if they want to come here, work in their Uncles store, get paid under the table to avoid Taxes, then use our money to fight their wars, then they can kiss my ass.

Well, of course the practicality of this ideology is scant at best today, but the idea should still stand for something. You're right, that Palistinean thug has no place in this country. But at the same time, the non-profit my mother works for hosts a summer camp every year dedicated to bringing both Palistinean and Israeli children together in peace. It usually works, and those that stay for schooling are very grateful for the experience. Those that go back often revert to the same cycle of hatred they were locked into before coming here.

I guess the only way that this theory of intigration is to work (because it didn't work that well the first time 'round, either, go read The Jungle) is when the people coming to our country not only bring their heritage with them, but adopt the multicutural heritage of America into their own lives. Easier said than done, I know, but the greatest stories of our heritage are told when a great-great-great-great whatever came over from "the old country" and made something of themselves, eventually passing the dignity they brought with them down to you.

Personally, I take immigration very seriously. I think that our borders should be (relatively) open to immigrants. However, I'm very impatient with people who insist on making public school bi-lingual. We speak ENGLISH in this country. You can't speak it? Oh well, try again later, I'm sure there's someone back home who can teach you, unless you want to pay for classes. I'm not going to stand there screaming mono-syllabically at some angry woman with a mustache to make sure there's no onions on my Whopper. (True story, but then, everybody's had to do that).

The biggest problem with immigration today is that there really isn't any more grunt labor like there was at the turn of the century. You actually need a skill to live here.

Oh well. I've got another 15 years to find some sort of answer here.

The GrimSqueaker · « **Reply #51 on:** March 21, 2002, 07:53:40 PM »

Quote from: Wraithboss on March 21, 2002, 10:00:46 AM

What the hell is this guy doing here?

Least the guy was working and sending his own money back across. How many billions do we give to Israel as"aid" so that they can kill people? Our own armed service is making do with 30 year old aircraft while we send the new stuff overseas. Where's the sense in that?

Niran of Asha An · « **Reply #52 on:** March 21, 2002, 08:42:05 PM »

Zim you're absolutely right, even if people can't (in fact they probably shouldn't) leave behind their heritage they should at least speak the national (for now at least) language.

Zim · « **Reply #53 on:** March 21, 2002, 10:20:28 PM »

Quote from: Cimex Digitus on March 21, 2002, 07:53:40 PM

Quote from: Wraithboss on March 21, 2002, 10:00:46 AM

What the hell is this guy doing here?

Least the guy was working and sending his own money back across. How many billions do we give to Israel as"aid" so that they can kill people? Our own armed service is making do with 30 year old aircraft while we send the new stuff overseas. Where's the sense in that?

Just a note to climex, I'm not really attacking you, just using your statement as a jumping point.

The sense is that Israel is our only ally, other than Turkey, in what is most likely the most dangerous and chaotic region in the entire world, and that the Israelis live in significantly more danger from terrorists than we do. I have absolutely no sympathy for the "plight" of the Palestineans. There never was a Palestinean state which could have been taken from them. There was a "Palestine," however, it was not an Islamic state; Jews and Muslims lived TOGETHER. The establishment of Israel as a Jewish state wasn't due to some hostile invasion; when the territory was carved up following World War II, it was APPOINTED to them. The Palistineans had the opportunity to accept a sharing of the land (much like what was offered Arafat at the Camp David Summit, which he angrily rebuffed), but they instead demanded that it was all or nothing.

Since then, Israel has faced constant aggressive action from its neighbors, and while it is indeed a strongly militant country, it is only responding to the hostility that surrounds it.

There is a Palestinean state in the Middle East. It's called Jordan. Israel has been adamant for the last half century that they would accept, even support, Muslims and Mosques within their borders, if the Palestineans would simply stop BLOWING UP THEIR CITIZENS!!!

Let's put this in perspective. If a tribe of Native Americans began shooting up schools and malls in your neighborhood, what would you do? OFFER them the land that was stolen from them? Bow your head and appologize, ignore the killing in order to placate the other tribes in the country? Jesus Christ NO! You'd annex their reservation and incarcerate every damn one of them that contributed to it.
*Please note that this is simply a hypothetical, and I am well aware that nothing of this kind would ever happen in the US. No flames, please.

This could probably be summed up in one very easy comparison. The Palestineans are angry at being evicted from their homes, partly because of the actions of the Israeli army, partly because of their own leaders' unwillingness to compramise and end the fighting. This is valid. The Israelis are angry at being attacked repeatedly by the Palestineans and "sympathetic" Islamic states. This is also valid probably more so. However, if the PLO ever got it's hands on a functioning nuclear weapon, Israel wouldn't be there tomorrow. Israel HAS nuclear weapons, and they haven't so much as pointed one in the West Bank's general direction.

Think on that.

The GrimSqueaker · « **Reply #54 on:** March 21, 2002, 10:52:17 PM »

I'm not going to start arguing which side is in the right as I believe that both sides are very much in the wrong. I do not support the needless deaths of innocent civilians not what which flag happens to be doing the killing. Us, them, anyone else.

The point I do wish to raise is this: What does it matter that one is our ally? Both sides are murdering people. Shouldn't condemnation be spread equally without favourtisim?

The circle of blame (we're doing this because they did that because we did this as they did that.....) is pointless and self defeating. Crying "they started it" didn't work back in school and certainly shouldn't be used as a basis for foreign policy.

It is the action that matters, not the identity of the nation performing it. A crime is a crime no matter what colour skin, what religion, or what flag is flying at the time.

I see both sides equally by their actions. Neither has the moral highground and both are responsible for what is happening.

Wraithboss · « **Reply #55 on:** March 23, 2002, 10:30:31 AM »

Quote from: Cimex Digitus on March 21, 2002, 10:52:17 PM

I see both sides equally by their actions. Neither has the moral highground and both are responsible for what is happening.

Ah, but one side DOES have the LEGAL highground, a document that was internationally ratified.

`Boss!

The GrimSqueaker · « **Reply #56 on:** March 23, 2002, 12:27:12 PM »

Could you explain a little further for those of us who aren't mind readers?

Wraithboss · « **Reply #57 on:** March 23, 2002, 01:21:22 PM »

I'll defer to Zim on this one. He's the Politico...

Zim · « **Reply #58 on:** March 23, 2002, 03:27:02 PM »

Heh heh... I don't really know the details, I know more about what happened in the Asian theatre following the war than what happend in Israel and Northern Africa. But I'll dig out my AP history textbooks and let you know tomorrow.

And I just got my acceptance letter from Boston College today! I'm an Eagle! Boo-yah! One step closer to office...

ARMIES

Members Online

Author Topic: 3rd world countries: The problem and the answer (Read 5393 times)

Cheantoa