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Offline Wyddr

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Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« on: July 6, 2015, 03:30:30 PM »
There continue to be rumors floating about that the CSM will be getting some kind of attention within the year. As such, I wish to resurrect an old (and much maligned) tradition here at 40KO--the interminable wish-list thread.

Post here to discuss your Chaos Space Marine Daydreams. Here are mine, section by section:

Army Wide Rules

First things first: Chaos Marks should be free (yes, free) on all mark-able models (all infantry and monsters, basically). They also should be slightly stronger than they are in some cases. This is to even out the whole "Loyalist Marines are soooo much better with their ATSKNF and Combat Squads and Chapter Tactics." So, here we go:

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Yes, bring it back (it sounds cool). Marked units can re-roll all Morale, Pinning, and Fear Checks. Hatred (Imperials).

Mark of Khorne: Rage, Counter-attack, Crusader
Mark of Slaanesh: +1 I, Fear, Fleet
Mark of Nurgle: +1 T, Defensive Grenades, Slow and Purposeful
Mark of Tzeentch: +1 Invul (6++ minimum), all characters count as Lv 1 Psyker

Champions of Chaos: I like the idea of forcing the challenge and getting rewards. I do think, however, the rule should change a bit. I say if a character defeats another character in the challenge, that character may add +1 to their WS/BS/S/T/Sv (player choice). This bonus remains for the rest of the game. This seems fair to me. Yes, your guys never will morph into Daemon Princes, but whatever--not that big a deal.

HQs
I'm going to save any discussion of special characters for later (too many to deal with), but in general I think our HQs are fine as-is. A price drop is probably needed for some (Dark Apostle!), but nothing here I consider upsetting. Certainly we could use a better array of artefacts and such, but we'll save that for later.

Elites
Holy crap, where to start?

Chosen need to be just plain better. Free marks starts that process, but let's give them access to a couple special rules that they have to pay for. Infiltrate/Tank Hunters/Deep Strike or stuff like that at a reasonable point cost. This gives them a role as multi-purpose special operatives or something.

Terminators get a modest price decrease (2-3 points per termie), but are otherwise fine. I think they work pretty well as-is, and free marks makes them pretty damned good.

Possessed are just awful as-is. Their randomly generated ability needs to be ditched. Give them a set of mutations they can purchase from the armory (hell, make these purchasable by Independent Characters or even just Characters, too). Give them access to wings/jump packs, let them buy the ability to move as beasts, give them access to rending/shred, give them access to some kind of attack-boosting ability (rampage, +1 A, something). If you want to invest the points, you can make these bastards absolutely killer. They will still just have the 3+/5++, though.

Hellbrutes: Bring their statline into line with the current SM Dreads and I'll be happy.

Mutilators: I don't know much about these guys other than they don't look awful on paper. They will need a price decrease, though.

Troops

Cultists are fine as they are and free marks makes them very handy. Let them buy some kind of modest antitank weapon--a grenade launcher on their leader, perhaps. Give them access to some kind of ramshackle, open-topped transport, a-la an Ork Trukk. Heavy stubber, AV10 open topped, Fast, 10 man capacity.

Chaos Space Marines will work pretty well with free, boosted marks, I think. Maybe a slight point decrease (maybe). I've never been as down on these guys as everybody else, though.

Okay, I've gotta run, but hopefully I've started the ball rolling. Let it out, gents! What do you hope to see?

Offline Calamity

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #1 on: July 6, 2015, 05:53:07 PM »
I love your ideas Wyddr. :)

I'd make Mark Of Chaos Undivided the standard mark with all units in the Codex having it and units can replace it with another one.  Oh, and how about if all units in the detachment have the same Mark then Icons and other Mark related stuff are free!  8)

For Possessed, a list of upgrades that they can buy from sounds great, but I do like the random angle too.  I thought of an idea of them rolling a D6 at the start of a turn.  Roll  1, lose a power.  Roll a 6, gain an extra one.  Or something like this.

Or maybe they can collectively roll on the Chaos Boon  chart, ignoring Demon hood.

Or both!  Purchasable upgrades to start with, and the unit can collectively roll on the Chaos Boom table if they wipe out a unit in melee.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2015, 06:02:17 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #2 on: July 6, 2015, 09:55:55 PM »
To keep rolling:

Cult Troops

Plague Marines are fine as-is, no change needed. Seriously, they are pretty awesome. Note that the new Marks would give them Slow and Purposeful, which seems fair. I'd like Blight Grenades to have the poisoned (4+) rule when thrown.

Noise Marines are generally fine with the boosted Mark, if a *bit* overpriced. Drop their points a trifle.

Bezerkers are also okay with a modest point decrease and the boost provided from the new Mark.

Thousand Sons seem to need a lot of work, but it can be simplified pretty readily by doing this: give them two wounds apiece, change nothing else. Same cost. This makes them *totally* worth it.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #3 on: July 8, 2015, 05:29:24 PM »
Some suggestions from me (because I like designing and fixing 40k rules):

The Warlord Traits need a slight adjustment imo;

1. Black Crusader: All units within 12'' of Warlord gain PE (Imperial Faction).  More useful.
4. Hatred Incarnate: Zealot (Again, more useless)
5. Lord Of Terror: Fear, which enemy units must test on 3D6. (Not my idea really)

For Khorne Berserkers, I'd take away Furious Charge (if they have it; haven't got my Codex to hand) and instead give them Rampage and Crusader.  Because then you'd definitely want to buy them an Icon Of Wraith!  ;)  And I'd make the Mark Of Khorne Rage, Counter Attack and Adamantium Will.



« Last Edit: July 8, 2015, 05:37:32 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #4 on: July 9, 2015, 10:41:00 AM »
For Khorne Berserkers, I'd take away Furious Charge (if they have it; haven't got my Codex to hand) and instead give them Rampage and Crusader.  Because then you'd definitely want to buy them an Icon Of Wraith!  ;)  And I'd make the Mark Of Khorne Rage, Counter Attack and Adamantium Will.

Disagreed. They keep it--they don't need an icon and never have had one. Adamantium Will is an interesting idea, but I've rarely found it useful. Most of the best psychic powers are devoted to buffing your own units and not shooting or hexing other peoples (a couple Eldar hexes aside). I don't think Adamantium Will has ever really come up for me in a game yet. I'd prefer to let all Khornate units keep Crusader, since they're primary problem is getting across the board and I'd like to give them a modest speed boost.

Psychic Powers
Since we're on the topic, I think the psychic lores in the codex need some attention. Well, mostly the Tzeentchian ones (the Nurgle and Slaanesh ones aren't really that bad).

Firstly: remove the limitation forcing a Chaos Sorcerer to choose one spell from their God's lore. No. Pick whatever you like. Lores should be Biomancy, Divintation, Pyromancy, Malefic Daemonology, and then the Gods' Lores.

About Tzeentch: I'm really, really tired of Tzeentch being nothing but fireballs. By all means have a Warpflame Primaris power and a Bolt of Change in there (yes, please!), but:

1) Flickering Flames is terrible, terrible. Let's stop it with the random strength nonsense (in fact, let's just *not* roll randomly for any weapon stat for any psychic power. Just stop it--getting the power off in the first place is randomness enough, thank you). Make it S4, AP6, Blast and let it do another D3 hits for each wound done as normal. That basically makes it a stronger frag missile, which seems totally fair.

2) Boon of Mutation should just give the character a +3 boost to a characteristic of their choice for the turn (WS/BS/S/T/I/A). No wound done, no table rolling.

3) Bolt of Tzeentch should remain as a Beam, 18", but give it a solid S8/AP1 and leave it that way. Keep the with the extra-large explosions--those are cool (even though they almost never happen).

4) I want a teleportation power, but one with a trick to it. Allow the Psyker + unit to switch positions with another unit bearing the Mark of Tzeentch. Both units deepstrike in their new locations. This could be a really interesting one to mess with.

5) Tzeentch's Deception: Cast it on an objective. This allows you to move the objective marker 12", so long as it does not go within 6" of a board edge and within 12" of another objective.

6) Wind of Chaos is okay, but the Warp Charge is too high.

There--those look cool now. Slaanesh and Nurgle I have less experience with, so I'll leave other people to comment on those lores. At first glance, they seem fairly useful against the right kinds of opponents.   

Offline Calamity

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #5 on: July 9, 2015, 02:27:00 PM »
I really like those physic power changes.  Especially 4 and 5.  Crusader for Khorne units is a must too I guess.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2015, 03:49:28 PM »
Here, have a superheavy walker.

It looks a little angry.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2015, 09:44:55 AM »
Here, have a superheavy walker.

It looks a little angry.

Nice.

I know I'm biased, but I'd *love* to see a Silver Tower of Tzeentch model someday, too. Not for the codex, necessarily (though maybe for the inevitable Cult codex), but at least from Forgeworld. Always wanted to scratch-build one, but my modeling skills just aren't good enough.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2015, 02:46:27 PM »
There's also this beasty now.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Chaos-Knight.pdf

A little cheaper than the previous guy but still mostly angry looking.
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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #9 on: August 5, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
My list is pretty short.  The 3.5 edition codex that was full of murderous gear and options, that was definitely unbalanced, now fits in perfectly with the 7th edition scheme so they may as well bring back just about all of that (but the models cost even fewer points than 3.5 because GW wants you to buy more models).  Random abilities for Possessed is total junk, definitely bring back how they were in 3.5.

Make Chaos marks work the same way for Demons and Marines, having different effects for the same mark is annoying to keep track of.

One Chaos Lord entry with the option to upgrade to a Sorcerer.  If the current Sorcerer remains he'd be an apprentice/lesser Sorcerer.  It's Chaos, they don't spend years in libraries while their battle brothers look at suspicion, they can be bloodthirsty savages that also know how to use warp stuff.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Wishlisting for Chaos Space Marines
« Reply #10 on: August 5, 2015, 01:23:26 PM »
My list is pretty short.  The 3.5 edition codex that was full of murderous gear and options, that was definitely unbalanced, now fits in perfectly with the 7th edition scheme so they may as well bring back just about all of that (but the models cost even fewer points than 3.5 because GW wants you to buy more models).

I think one good way to simulate a lot of the flavor of the 3.5 book is with formations. I think there should be one for each of the non-cult legions: Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, etc..

 
Quote
Random abilities for Possessed is total junk, definitely bring back how they were in 3.5.


Agreed!

Quote
Make Chaos marks work the same way for Demons and Marines, having different effects for the same mark is annoying to keep track of.

Hmmm...some problems with this. Tzeentch Terminators and their guaranteed 2+ rerollable armor save springs immediately to mind.

Quote
One Chaos Lord entry with the option to upgrade to a Sorcerer.  If the current Sorcerer remains he'd be an apprentice/lesser Sorcerer.  It's Chaos, they don't spend years in libraries while their battle brothers look at suspicion, they can be bloodthirsty savages that also know how to use warp stuff.

I'd still like separate entries. I *do* like the idea of being able to buy Psychic Levels for your Lord, though. Limit them to 2, however. Keep the Sorcerer as-is--really not much wrong with the guy, assuming you make the psychic powers not suck. 

 


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