News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}  (Read 1509 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Drecian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 56
    • Live Journal.com
Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« on: July 6, 2006, 01:59:43 PM »
I don't know if this is the right place to post this thread and if it's not, I'm sorry. =/

A few days ago I got a message from someone asking me if I would paint minis for him, and that got me thinking of the summer of 2004 (or 2005?) when I did do some commissioned work on a Raven Guard army before a tournament.
I was payed just over 80$ to do Scouts, Cpt. Shrike, two assault squads and a Predator Destructor. It was nearly worth it, were it not for the scouts (now I'd ask for another 20$ as there were a lot of scouts, and I can't stand doing a large number of models that I can't convert).
I've also done Dark Angels and Necrons for another friend who's always paid me with accessories and minis in return.

Last summer I met an old Warhammer 40k opponent from the local hobby centre who was making money from painting minis for other people.
I don't mean to downplay anyone (or to brag) but I know that my skills are much better than his and I'm confident that if I put my posters up I'll get at least a few customers for the summer.

My only problem is that I'm not a business man and have the habit of undercharging people for anything and everything I'm trying to sell (I always try to keep things fair, but I guess I'm just too nice for business).
My father was telling me that I should charge 8.00$/hour, which I thought to be insanely pricey. Consider this example:
I'll usually spend at least two or three hours on a Space Marine (I'm a guy of quality over quantity, despite my army choice). Imagine that there might be at least twenty minis to paint. That would already be at least 320$ for two tactical squads!

So now I'm thinking of a 'dollar per points' approach. As an example I might say 0.20$ per point.
So, for example, a 12 point Space Marine would be worth 2.40$, and a 1000 point army worth 200$.
I actually think that 0.20$ per point is a bit low considering that it would translate into about 0.10$/hour.
...but then I feel as if I might be too pricey if I ask for 0.50$ to 0.70$/point.

As a side note, I was also thinking of having a system where I do highly converted Special Characters, H.Q.s and Monstrous Creatures for a bit more than the average model.
The price would mostly depend on the models' size rather than its' points value, though I would most definetly make it worth the cost!

I know that some people don't like the idea of people paying other people to paint their army (some say it's lazy), but what would you think would be acceptable? Would you pay someone (who paints and converts well) 0.70$/point to paint your army (that's about 700$/army)?
As an example of what I do, I've posted a photo bellow. Perhaps you might tell me what you think that kind of a paint job is worth?

How should I price my miniature painting/converting?! Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance to all.

~Drecian

« Last Edit: July 6, 2006, 02:06:51 PM by Drecian »
~ My Will is my Faith.

Offline chaos0xomega

  • Hilary Clinton FTW!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
  • Fabricator-General of being banned.
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #1 on: July 6, 2006, 02:26:13 PM »
Well, the way I see it is that there really isn't a fair way to charge. If you charge by the hour, then how would your client know that you are being fair? If you charge by the point, then all what the guy has to do is give you a list with 0 upgrades on it, and get more bang for his buck.

I have done small commisions(usually converting, although I have painted a few squads), and usually I charge by whatever I feel is right. I look at the stuff, say a tac squad, think about what paint I would have to use and how to do the scheme, and depending on how hard it would be, I come up with a price, usually 5-15 dollars for a ten man squad depending.
BANNED!
This user has been banned for regular breaches of Forum rules.

Offline Targetawg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 530
  • I *LOVE* EO and 40K.ca
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #2 on: July 6, 2006, 03:24:41 PM »
I paint for commission from time to time, and usually keep to painting up spare models I dont plan on keeping and ebaying them. The easiest way is to price your jobs in "levels". Given your skill at painting, which is good, but not amazing, try these basic levels:

Level 1: Basic paint job, little highlighting, basing, clean lines, but nothing fancy
5 dollars per normal size mini (ie, tact marine) 10-15 per larger creature (wraithlord, daemon prince, etc) and 20 per large vehicle (land raiders).

Level 2: This is a more involved paint job, with well done highlighting and more attention to details, usually used on squad leaders, hq's, etc. Double the previous prices or a bit less

The best way to get a feel for your pricing is to see how much people are willing to pay for your skills. I get offers at my game shop from passerbys to build/convert/paint, and I generally turn them down because I dont like to look like a jerk. For example a guy yesterday asked me how much to make him a waveserpent like mine (falcon, lots of plasticard, and nice painting) and I told him I dont really do that. Reason being, I sold a similar, but not nearly as nice one, on ebay for 120 a year or two ago. If I were to tell him, oh, about 140 dollars, he'd think I was a jerk. This is why the easiest way to sell paintied mini's, is a forum like ebay, no ones feelings get hurt, and only the people who believe its worth what you're asking actually bid.

Painting aint exactly a money making business until you're very good, i only do it as a way to pay for myself to participate in the hobby.

Btw, level 1 paint jobs should be 1 hour ish, level 2 should be 2-3 hours (these vary on model size of course, but thats time for a basic mini of normal size) and if you offer a special, commander level paint job, these should take 4 hours +.

The mini you pictured is probably around a level 1. Thats not an insult, if you paint for commission, level 1 is the "good table top" standard. If you wanted him to be level 2: thin down your paints, they look thick, be more precise with your highlights, and you'll prolly want 2 shades of hightlights, paint his eyes, and take a bit more time on the purity seal.


Edit: put some examples below of various level work of mine:

Level 1: Clean lines, nothing fancy, a nicely blended weapon as a touch, thats it. Took about an hour. I'd probably charge 5-6 bucks for this sort of paint job.


Level 2: More involved, robes have 3-4 shades, gems are all done, a more involved paint job.


Level 3(or my "level 3" as level 3 is generally more of a showcase model, im no golden daemon winner) : Model has 8-9 shades of blue hightlights, blends are smooth, scenic base (although this one needs more work), well done eyes, a commander model.

« Last Edit: July 6, 2006, 03:30:41 PM by Targetawg »

Offline Raven

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2089
  • Country: 00
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #3 on: July 6, 2006, 04:07:13 PM »
You need to learn to paint on two levels I feel.

The "squad of guys" level, and the "independant character" level.

The standard in the shop where I've freelanced is simple. You charge the price of the figures.

This reflects the ammount of work needed.


eg. 10 man tactical squads need a coat of paint, a hilight, and some details adding, taking maybe 3-4 hours a squad.

1 librarian needs love and care as he has to stand by himself and is the center of the army, he needs at least two or three hours work to look nice.


Neither I, nor the member of staff who paints, have ever had complaints on our work, so we must be doing something right.

Offline Drecian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 56
    • Live Journal.com
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #4 on: July 6, 2006, 07:34:23 PM »
Well, the way I see it is that there really isn't a fair way to charge. If you charge by the hour, then how would your client know that you are being fair? If you charge by the point, then all what the guy has to do is give you a list with 0 upgrades on it, and get more bang for his buck.

I have done small commisions(usually converting, although I have painted a few squads), and usually I charge by whatever I feel is right. I look at the stuff, say a tac squad, think about what paint I would have to use and how to do the scheme, and depending on how hard it would be, I come up with a price, usually 5-15 dollars for a ten man squad depending.
Thanks for your advice!
The problem you mentioned about charging by the hour (how does the customer know that you're being fair) seems to be the #1 issue that pops up.
As for charging per point value, I would think that WYSIWYG would 'protect' the fairness of the deal. I mean, a customer still needs to represent what he's using...

The mini you pictured is probably around a level 1. Thats not an insult, if you paint for commission, level 1 is the "good table top" standard. If you wanted him to be level 2: thin down your paints, they look thick, be more precise with your highlights, and you'll prolly want 2 shades of hightlights, paint his eyes, and take a bit more time on the purity seal.
Thanks for those tips! The Games Workshop clerk said the same thing about the carapace for my Carnifex when I showed it to him, and so I fixed it up a bit (I don't know if you've seen it, but would that be a '3rd Level' model?).
My major issue is simply that I'm red/green colour blind. This doesn't mean that I can't see the colours (how would I be able to do the Dark Angel Space Marine?), but that I have trouble seeing the differences between shades of red and green. Unfortunatly this also 'contaminates' the way I see shades of brown too...
Here's a link to show you the carapace that I'm talking about---> http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=117126.0

I think that I'll take your advice and start by selling a ('3rd Level') model over e-bay just to see what happens. 

You need to learn to paint on two levels I feel.

The "squad of guys" level, and the "independant character" level.

The standard in the shop where I've freelanced is simple. You charge the price of the figures.

This reflects the ammount of work needed.
I thought about charging the price of the model but I didn't think that anyone would pay for that...
Also, I think I'll try the 'Squad of Guys level' vs the 'Independant Character' level.

I've already prepared ads for the local hobby shops to post that essentially invite anyone who wants their army painted to call or e-mail me. Does this sound like a good idea...
...I'm starting to feel a bit hesitant (though I'm so sure why).
« Last Edit: July 6, 2006, 07:40:41 PM by Drecian »
~ My Will is my Faith.

Offline Raven

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2089
  • Country: 00
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #5 on: July 6, 2006, 07:46:03 PM »
The fex is definately a good figure. Someone who bought a "centerpiece model" paintjob would want something on that level.

If you find red/green differenciation difficult, maybe its best to not offer your services? Especially if people are wanting armies of salamanders and blood angels  ;)

Struggling through figures at a large cost of personal time doesn't seem the best way to produce money...

Offline Targetawg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 530
  • I *LOVE* EO and 40K.ca
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #6 on: July 6, 2006, 08:05:41 PM »
Painting commission can be very rewarding I've found. I get to paint many more figures than I normally would (which i enjoy) and my painting is progressing by leaps and bounds, much faster than just buying my own models. Also, I earn a little spending money, and pay for my own armies so I dont spend any "real money" as I refer to it, ie, thinks I make from my job at school (Im a college student, so a bit of pocket change and paying for a hobby helps).

Your color blindness shouldnt be a problem imo, although you probably would want to then paint models that you know this wont be an issue, ie, sell models you painted of your own choice on ebay, or let people know it up front that you arent going to be doing any blood angels or christmas colored armies.


That carnifex! I cited you in another post where someone was asking about how to do blood splatter, great work on that one. That carapace is spot on, simple, yet very believable looking. That would be a level 3 job imo, at least for you or me. Some painting services level 3 jobs are like the ebay seller scibor, golden demon quality models, and they charge accordingly. That fex will probably fetch a nice profit on ebay if you want to sell him, or sell another one like him.

My advice is to trade on places like bartertown for models, I traded recently some khador for a ton of warhammer figures (for which the painted figure market is larger) and traded for them just to paint and sell. Got a couple of those limited edition witch hunter guys from games day, a valten on foot limited edition, and other hq choice models for space marines mainly. Then I'll do high quality paint jobs, and sell them for a profit on ebay. Painting squads is generally more time consuming, and harder to find what everyone will like. Its hard to find a large pool of bidders for say, a squad of 10 professionaly done tactical marines, because the paint scheme may not fit their army. However one very well done hq choice can be an individual, doesnt have to match the particular army they have, and more are willing to shop for these models.

Offline Drecian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 56
    • Live Journal.com
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #7 on: July 6, 2006, 09:09:47 PM »
Suprisingly enough my colourblindness doesn't really have much of an effect on my paint jobs now that I know about it, though it does take me more time to paint a green or red model than most people (as I have to think about how much I've mixed my colours as apposed to just looking at my progress). The proof of this is that the Canifexs' carapace used to be as 'not so blended' as the Space Marine Sgt. until I was told to watch my blending (at which point I completely re-did it).
The Dark Angel Sgt. that I've shown above was done before I found out that I was colourblind and back then I paid a lot less attention to shades.

But all in all, colours like Shadow Grey, Midnight, Ultramarines and/or Enchanted Blue are my favourite to work with as my eyes understand their different shadings perfectly.

When(/if) I do commission work I won't mention my colourblindness. For one, I don't want to lose customers on the idea that I'm visually 'handicaped' and second, I don't want the fact that it takes me more time to do a Dark Angel than it takes me to do an Ultramarine to bother me.
After all, I won't get the customer to pay for my visual defects. =p

My solution is going to be simple: I've already started to compile photos of my models and I'll put a binder together, similar to the ones that you'll find in a tatoo parlour. That way they'll have a better idea of what they're paying for. ^ - ^
« Last Edit: July 6, 2006, 09:15:41 PM by Drecian »
~ My Will is my Faith.

Offline Targetawg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 530
  • I *LOVE* EO and 40K.ca
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #8 on: July 6, 2006, 09:41:26 PM »
Sounds like a good idea, and yea, those are my favorite colors to work with as well. I use shadow grey as a base for my entire eldar army, adding white/black to do my blending and shading, and other accent colors.

Just remember in the end if you want to make money, try and paint a model that will appeal to the widest audience on ebay, these are generally full organization chart choices. Given that fex, Id love to see what some of your models end up gathering, surprisingly, one of my favorite parts of it is the sort of bubbling green ooze, which looks great.

Good luck, and I hope it turns out well.

Offline Armored Kangaroo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 257
  • Lord Commander of Rythe
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #9 on: July 6, 2006, 09:52:30 PM »
I tried painting models for money at my high school, I asked what quality they wanted and charged accordingly. I want to make sure I have done my best before I got paid, Unfortunately one the first kid I painted for, payed me half and then stalled and stalled and stalled. Until the point where he refused disapered and started to avoid me. I later found out he has a bad rep with his gaming group and none of his so called friends trusted him. They told they he had no plans on paying me back, So I payed another guy who was painting that Kids tank to give the tank to me; he didn't like him either. The lesson of this story is unless you know the person and trust them, ask for payment in advance or upon the exchange of goods. As well
as don't rip-off with someone who has more influence and resources than you do.

Thank the Emperor that kid was expelled last month, little @#%^
he still doesn't know I have his Tank.

I feel for you Drecian my favorite colors to work with are Red and Green.

But despite that set back I would take commission work again. The large Black Reaper Black Dragon I did last year is still my second favorite model I have ever painted, and only charge $35ca.
It is the right of the victors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquised.

Offline Fury

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 793
  • Country: us
  • Glory to the Dark Gods
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #10 on: July 6, 2006, 11:24:04 PM »
I've used eBay with mixed results.

Most of the time, unless you are an elite painter, or have some name recognition, painting minis for profit is at best a hobby income, not something you would be able to make a lot of money with.

Most of the time I have gotten a 10-20% premium over the cost for painted figures, and my paint jobs don't suck. As a matter of fact, I usually rank around 6.5-7 with  my stuff on a well-known site.

You can further increase profit % by getting cheap deals on boxes, again on eBay.

I think I sold 750 pts of Ultras (2 tac squads, captain, and a dreadnought) for about $225, and the figs only cost me $125, through trades and deals. So that's not bad, but I've also sold models for the cost of the figure, which is depressing!   

I sell them for the satisfaction of knowing somewhere, someone is using my painted figures to game with. 
Ruinous Powers - My Chaos Space Marines Blog
http://ruinouspowers.blogspot.com

Offline Targetawg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 530
  • I *LOVE* EO and 40K.ca
Re: Painting for ca$h {Has anyone done it?}
« Reply #11 on: July 7, 2006, 02:32:00 AM »
Thats another good point. To increase profit, I dont buy my figures, I trade for them or buy them on ebay/bartertown for a small % of the retail. On ebay eldar usually goes for 25% of retail price.

I sold an avatar and a 9 man seer council (2 farseers, 7 warlocks) that werent the best paint jobs, did them a couple years ago, for 170+ shipping on ebay.

I paid 40 for them off ebay, tops.

 


Powered by EzPortal