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Author Topic: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?  (Read 21800 times)

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Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #20 on: February 8, 2005, 02:07:57 AM »
Wow- I already excited by the screenshots. I would just like to know how much time you expect is left (just a rough estimate based on the pace you are going at) and whether or not you would feel it would be feasible to expand the project to get a team working on it.

The core features still missing from the gaming board portion of the project - the ones I know of, anyway, as I'm sure more will pop up once people get to try the client out - are game creation and password locking, unit squad change tool, unit description change tool and templates (explosions and weapons). Once these are in, you can theoretically play a game of WH40k if you have an army file and a terrain file available, unless I've forgotten something essential. If all goes as planned, these missing features should be in place within the next few weeks. Even then, though, there's a lot of polishing to do. In its present state, for example, if you get disconnected from the game then that's it - you can re-join the game, but your client will not get all of the moves that happened in the game and thus your map of the battle will not match that of the others'. If / when playtesting commences, it's probably a good idea to play small games or make sure that you don't get disconnected / suffer a crash.

At that point I imagine I will manually create one or two very, very basic terrain files which can be used for playtesting (remember that thus far I have only one terrain tile - grass - and two scenery objects - a tree and a rock - and no graphical terrain editor at my disposal). Unit markers are equally scarce at the moment, with just a basic 1x1 inch troop marker and a Whirlwind-sized tank marker.

And yes, there are some things that people can do to pitch in, but I want to remind everyone, once again, that your participation is purely voluntary and you should not do anything you're not willing to put aside if the project never comes to fruitition. That's the main reason why I haven't actively sought anyone to work on something thus far; it's disappointing to do something only to find out it was never used for anything. Not to mention the fact that I am a new face on these boards and so far I have shown you nothing that would prove that I actually have working code on my hands. Right now all you have is my word.

With that aside, there are some things that can be done separately from the client code I'm working on.

1) The army editor. This is a PHP project so knowledge of PHP and HTML is required (Skyline?). I can provide you with a hand-created XML file and explain how the army editor should go about creating a file in similar format. Since the army file format is NOT finalized at this point, the editor should be done so that the things it asks the user and writes into an XML file can be altered with minimal fuss. The editor also needs to be able to load up an XML file it has created, present an editable list of all information contained within the XML file, and save it back onto the server with another name (no overwriting at this point).

2) Unit markers. This is a three-part project:

2.1) We need inch sizes of units (in the case of vehicles) or their bases to create markers for the client. For example, the basic troop base is 1 x 1 inches, while a Whirlwind is roughly 2.8" by 5" in size, for example. If the model extends beyond its base, then the base size is the one that should be measured.

2.2) We need graphics for these units. Since the unit markers are done in Flash and exported as SWF files, Macromedia Flash is required for this part. Anyone with the skills to do this will receive an example unit file (in FLA format) and instructions from me to see how they are created. Remember, when I say "graphics" I mean very, very basic stuff - if you look at the 1x1 troop marker in the screenshots, you can see that they are just circles. The tank marker is a box with some features on it which remotely resemble the top-down outline of a Whirlwind. In marker graphics, one inch equals to 15 pixels.

2.3) Adding code to the units. Although I moved most of the code that might change from the unit markers over to the client, there are still some things which I have kept behind. These might still change along the way, so any changes done to one unit marker's code need to be copied over to all other unit markers within Macromedia Flash. This is something I'll likely do myself, since it ties in with the client code.

3) Scenery objects. This, just like the unit markers, requires Macromedia Flash software but also a bit more graphical talent (just a bit). The scenery objects are created in a similar fashion to unit markers and they contain a little bit of code, but that code is likely not going to change - it's there just to show the user information text when they move a mouse over the object. In the screenshots above you can see two scenery objects: a tree and a rock. These have both been drawn to a certain size, but since they are vector graphics they will be re-sizeable in the terrain editor. Thus the tree picture can, with some changes to its info text, be also used as a bush object (after sizing it down). I can provide example FLA files for anyone who want to give this a try, so that they know how the objects work and what kind of style they should try to emulate (for the sake of unity, the scenery objects should roughly resemble one another in style regardless of artist). Obviously all objects need to be drawn from the top-down perspective and you should keep in mind that units will always be drawn on top of scenery objects, so you can't create arches for example.

4) Terrain tiles. These are bitmap graphics (in JPEG format), which need to tile seamlessly within an area of 1080 x 720 pixels. 60 x 60 pixels is one good size for the tile, but you could just as well use 270x180 as long as it tiles well. Right now I have a pale grass tile available (see screenshot below), but we'll obviously need plenty of different tiles: sand, snow, alien soil, mud, swamp, etc, etc. Note that unlike in RTS games, "tile" in this project means a graphical object which is tiled to cover the WHOLE board and on top of which scenery objects are laid. You only need to draw one tile per soil type. The program you use to create the tile is up to you, as long as you can maintain a high-quality copy (in Photoshop's case PSD) of the tile in addition to the final JPEG version. Some graphical talent is naturally required. The tiles should be lit as if they were exposed to normal earth daylight.

5) Full terrain backgrounds. This is a VERY "iffy" part of the project, as I'm not yet sure if it will be used (it works right now, but how will it work when people with 56k modems try to download a 200-300 kilobyte background image over the net?). As I briefly mentioned in an earlier post, terrain backgrounds are basically one huge terrain tile (1080 x 720 pixels in size) that does not get tiled. Talented artists can, if they want to (and with no firm promise of this feature being used in the end if technical problems arise), draw any top-down landscape they want (without scenery objects such as trees, rocks, ruins, etc - but lakes and rivers are ok) and save it as a JPEG file. This file will then be loaded in place of a tileable graphic, and scenery objects can be laid on top of it. Theoretically this offers a whole lot of freedom for anyone who has the skills to draw good-looking landscape and feels that tiles restrict them. Theoretically terrain features such as hills can also be drawn onto the background image (all shadows on the landscape should be drawn as if the light was coming from the top edge of the picture), but to make the presence of a hill clear you might want to also draw elevation lines to indicate where the elevation of the terrain has changed by one WH40k unit compared to neighbouring areas. If you're not familiar with elevation lines, here's an example:



The white wavy lines show where terrain height has changed significantly - in this case the top of the hill is on the left. The short straight lines pointing away from the wavy lines show which way water flows (so if they were pointing the other way, this would be a pit instead of a hill).

6) Terrain editor (done in Flash). I'm noting this down here, but in reality this is a big task and one that I have not even planned for yet (save for the terrain file format). This is what I'll start working on after the client is done, but if there are any Flash / ActionScript wizards in here feel free to stand up.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2005, 02:18:15 AM by Alpha »

Offline skyline

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #21 on: February 8, 2005, 10:05:49 AM »
Thats me!

Yeah, I can def. help you do this.

I private messaged you yesterday, feel free to respond to me that way.

Obviously I'll have questions, and we can iron that out through email or something..
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Offline 'Mark'

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #22 on: February 8, 2005, 10:56:46 AM »
2) Unit markers. This is a three-part project:

2.1) We need inch sizes of units (in the case of vehicles) or their bases to create markers for the client. For example, the basic troop base is 1 x 1 inches, while a Whirlwind is roughly 2.8" by 5" in size, for example. If the model extends beyond its base, then the base size is the one that should be measured.

Well, I could at least give you some sizes...

IG

All infantry: 1" diameter base
Rough riders (cavalry): 1 x 2" base
Sentinel: 2,3" diameter base
Leman Russ (all variants): 3,1" x 4,6" without sponsors - sponsors add .5" to both sides (so 1" in total)
Chimera, Hellhound, Griffon, Basilisk: 3,6" x 4,6"

SM

Normal infantry: 1" diameter base
Terminators: they can use the larger base, but I suggest a 1" diametre base
Dreadnought: 2,5" diameter base
Land Raider: 3,7" x 6,6" without sponsors - sponsors add 1" to both sides (so 2" in total) The land raider must have sponsors.
Rhino, predator, razorback: 3" x 4,6"

That's all I have, hope it helps a bit..

Offline Disguise

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #23 on: February 8, 2005, 11:07:55 AM »
Hmmm, look at army builder and how it's text files have individual point costs for every unit and peice of wargear, how does that work without the GW Legal people going into a blood frenzy? I imagine this could use something like the data file system.

As for the idea itself, I'm 100% behind it. I think that this deserves it's own site and forum (or at least hosting and a board on 40K online) once it gets off the ground. Good luck to you more technically inclined people.
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Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #24 on: February 8, 2005, 12:53:53 PM »
Thats me!

Yeah, I can def. help you do this.

I've replied to your private message with detailed information on the army editor.

Well, I could at least give you some sizes...

Thanks for these - I'll note them down for future reference. For perceived legal reasons I don't think we'll be able to have a "spacemarine" marker and an "imperialguard" marker - those are copyrighted property of Games Workshop and I doubt we'd have the right to use them in a program like this. Instead we'll have a "troop_1" marker for all troop units with 1" base, "walker_2-3" marker for all walkers with a 2.3" base and so on. The marker graphics will be equally simple - the troop marker is, as shown in the example screenshots, a simple circle. Markers for vehicles might share a passing resemblance with the top-down outline of the said unit, but nothing more than that (Rhinos and such look like rectangles with some distinguishing shapes, for example).

Hmmm, look at army builder and how it's text files have individual point costs for every unit and peice of wargear, how does that work without the GW Legal people going into a blood frenzy? I imagine this could use something like the data file system.

It is indeed curious that Army Builder comes with data files for all WH40k units with real names and such. Perhaps the fact that the files containing unit information for each game are free and apparently not (all?) created by WL has something to do with it? (as I recall, WL only charges for the program, which is theirs; not the unit data which belongs to gaming companies).

If someone here knows the Army Builder developers personally or has had previous dialogue with them, perhaps you could get in touch with them and inquire how they can use official GW unit data within their product?

In the meanwhile..

I worked on the alteration tool today and save for future refinements and possible code-cleanup the tool is now complete. Any deployed unit of yours can now be hidden, revealed and removed, and their squad number and description text can be changed - your opponents will also be notified of these changes and they can see the changes on their gaming boards. With the LOS tool refined and likely finalized yesterday, this means all core features required for moving or altering units are complete or at the very least usable to some degree.

The next tool I'm going to tackle is the template tool which will allow for artillery barrages and flamer-like attacks. Since I only have the 3rd Edition boxed set I need to confirm with you guys that the 4th Edition templates are the same:

1. ~3 inch blast marker
2. ~4.9 inch blast marker
3. ~8.3 inch x ~2.4 inch cone template
« Last Edit: February 8, 2005, 12:56:25 PM by Alpha »

Offline Evil Ninja

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #25 on: February 8, 2005, 01:07:56 PM »
This is amazing! I cant wait to see more. Do you have some kidn of development site or something that people can see a bit more into the project?

(if not, try www.freewebs.com...easy stuff ;D)

Offline Roy

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #26 on: February 8, 2005, 01:09:03 PM »
Well, Skijunkies BloodBowl client is still up and running, along with the fumbbl site.

Course, that just promotes the games, and creates free PR for GW, so I don't think they really care. THe online community was responsible for bringing back BB in the first place.

Ah well.

Good Luck Alpha

Offline Disguise

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #27 on: February 8, 2005, 11:02:21 PM »
Maybe because the data file is the work of one person and it's somehow harder for GW to sue an individual as opposed to a mod team? Or maybe the person providing the data file is actually in some country that doesn't give a damn about copyright laws (like where I live, China). Lastly, you could renounce your citizenship in whatever country and go live in a houseboat in international waters... though that's a bit extreme :D.
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Offline skyline

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #28 on: February 9, 2005, 12:32:22 AM »
@ Alpha.

got the Spec, worked on some code. PM'd you back.
I'll mail you what I have tonight or tom.
Along with some questions..-= ]

I have an extension lib (includes in php) that I won't have access too until I go home, tom., but that should speed up my development a bit..(as I wont have to re-invent the wheel on everything)...


On another note, its good to see a lot of people are feelings this idea. I think its great!!!

Also, Alpha, I have hosting space w/php/sql/perl and forums etc...Talk to me about that as well..
Also, I currently maintain a website for an ex-gw (8 years) employee, we can speak about your legal concerns....

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Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #29 on: February 9, 2005, 05:36:46 AM »
Well, Skijunkies BloodBowl client is still up and running, along with the fumbbl site.

Course, that just promotes the games, and creates free PR for GW, so I don't think they really care. THe online community was responsible for bringing back BB in the first place.

I'll have to take a look into this client if I can - thanks for the heads-up.

Maybe because the data file is the work of one person and it's somehow harder for GW to sue an individual as opposed to a mod team? Or maybe the person providing the data file is actually in some country that doesn't give a damn about copyright laws (like where I live, China). Lastly, you could renounce your citizenship in whatever country and go live in a houseboat in international waters... though that's a bit extreme :D.

As I explained earlier my intention is not to try and "get away with stuff" when it comes to this client. I'm doing my best to make it usable for WH40k gaming while at the same time not implementing things that would clearly violate GW's rights.

As SnakeEyes pointed out, though, if this project comes to life it will also provide GW with free publicity. Since a big part of the hobby is the collecting and assembling of models, perhaps Battleboard will provide a way for new people with just the rulebook to get to know the game mechanics (with more experienced players) and then jump into the hobby full-force, models and all.

I have an extension lib (includes in php) that I won't have access too until I go home, tom., but that should speed up my development a bit..(as I wont have to re-invent the wheel on everything)...

Sounds good to me - just keep in mind that whatever libraries you use have to be free and work on any server with PHP installed (not just with some specific, special setup). Whatever the army editor requires will be included in the Battleboard client / script package so we can't use anything that's commercial or not presentable to the public.

I'm guessing you already knew this but just wanted to make sure.

Also, Alpha, I have hosting space w/php/sql/perl and forums etc...Talk to me about that as well..
Also, I currently maintain a website for an ex-gw (8 years) employee, we can speak about your legal concerns....

At this moment additional hosting space is not required. You test the army editor end of things where it best suits you and I work on the client side on my server. We can discuss this in more detail if / when playtesting comes around, because the client and scripts will need to be hosted on a server where everyone can try it out (without registration and whatnot - I don't want to bog people down with stuff like that).

As for the legal concerns, it'd be great if you could ask this person what his view (or idea of GW's official view) on Army Editor's use of WH40k unit data is. If he doesn't know, perhaps he knows someone who knows.

This is amazing! I cant wait to see more. Do you have some kidn of development site or something that people can see a bit more into the project?

I have a development site where I test the client / PHP script interaction, but for the time being it's not public. However, since I have reached a point where all of the core features (including templates, assuming the sizes I posted in my previous message are correct?) are "working" (in a very loose definition of the word) I figured I could show you guys a screenshot of the client, explain what you're seeing and hear what you think of it thus far.

The screenshot is a rather large JPEG file (300 kilobytes), so I am not directly linking it into this message. Instead, open the link below in a new browser window so that you can view it while reading my comments:

http://www.puonti.net/stuff/client_example.jpg

First of all, the screenshot is life-size; if it fits fully on your screen the real client should also fit. Second, very little effort has been put into client graphics since a fancy interface is not needed for testing code. No code, no client. At first look the screenshot probably looks like an awful mess of random stuff, but after reading my description of each component you should have a far better understanding of the client's inner workings. Suffice to say, you can hide most of the stuff you can see in the screenshot and get a clear view of the battlefield.

1) The big black box in the upper left corner is the "Game status" screen; you can drag it freely within the gaming area. It lists information about the game you are currently in:

"The Conflict" - this is the name of the game you're in. Also listed in the game browser (not shown)

"WH40k" - the ruleset used by the game. Whomever creates a game can enter this information for reference (the idea is that THEORETICALLY you could use this client to play other wargames aswell, or play with your own rules)

"Map: Grasslands" - obviously, this indicates which terrain file is used by this game

"Just another battle...." - this is a short description text of the game set by the game's creator. It can be fluff, it can be house rules, it can be mission type - it's really up to the creator what it's used for

Below the description area is player information: you can see the total number of slots available in this game, the name of each slot and their status (free / occupied, no army selected / view army). Clicking on "View army" shows the army composition chosen by that particular player in the text area to the right. This is also where your own army is shown, and from where you deploy units to the reserves area and on to the battlefield. Eventually you'll be able to change your name (the default names for each slot are decided by whomever creates the game) but right now the "Change name" text field does nothing.

At the bottom of the Game status window is a small statusline and the "Quit" button which is used to leave the game (it doesn't even ask if you're sure, right now). After selecting your army but before the game starts, a "Ready" button is shown to the left of the Quit button.

On the right side of the Game status screen is the army viewer. When you join a game you click on the "Get army list" button to get a list of all army files available on the server. You select an army file by clicking on their name (displayed as a list in the white area) and select the one you loaded up with a button below the white text field (not shown in the screenshot since the game is in progress - in fact, the "Get army list" button shouldn't be visible either at this point..).

The army viewer lists all units in your army and can be scrolled up or down with the arrow buttons in the top right corner (or by drag-selecting text within the textfield).

Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #30 on: February 9, 2005, 05:37:13 AM »
2) The small black box closer to the center of the screen is the dice roller. With it you should be able to set up any roll that involves 1-99 die with 1-999 sides and, if you want to, apply up to two modifiers to it. Each modifier can be applied either to each individual roll or only to the final result (method is changed by clicking on the "Apply to result" / "Apply to rolls" -text), and each modifier can be either add, substract, divide or multiply (you change the type by clicking on the "+" sign).

Clicking the "Public roll" -text will send the roll you've set up to everyone, and clicking the "Private roll" will show it only to you in the text box below (for what use, I don't know). The text box is still lacking scroll buttons and the dice roller window can't be dragged yet (but will be draggable). I also haven't tested it extensively with weird rolls, but so far it seems to work. How random the rolls really are I can't say; I use the random() function built into Flash.

3) The white text boxes in the bottom left corner are the game log display (top) and chat window (bottom) (aka. "Message center"). If this was a game with three or more players, the "Public" channel button would be followed by player-specific buttons which allowed you to switch between different views. Chat messages sent by yourself are shown in bold in the message view. These windows can not be dragged around - whenever not hidden, they show up in the bottom left corner of the screen.

You can see some underlined green text in the game log display - these are LOS checks or template placements done by yourself or other players. By clicking on one of these links you can display that particular action on your board. If you look at the mess of lines on the right side of the gaming board, the orange (LOS) and yellow (distance) lines eminating from the green unit marker are one of these game log -linked LOS checks. The orange flamer template is a game log -linked template placement. The red (LOS) and green (distance) lines are your own LOS lines as set up in your LOS tool, and the red round template is your template tool in action (if it had been set up by the Ork player and you had clicked on the link in the game log window, it'd be orange instead).

EDIT: Only one game log -linked LOS check and one game log -linked template placement can be viewed at any given time. If you click on another LOS link in the game log window, the previous foreign LOS check is replaced by the new one (same with foreign template placements).

Unfortunately while setting up this screenshot I noticed that the chat system has a bug in it. I'm not yet sure where, but presently certain messages get completely messed up (and can, in fact, freeze the whole chat system). This adds another thing to my pre-playtesting list of things to get sorted. The chat and game log windows also lack scroll buttons and frames right now.

4) The small buttons with letters on them, below the message center, are used to toggle various options within the client. From left to right (each option can also be toggled by pressing the letter on your keyboard):

"G" - toggles between light on dark, dark on light and no grid (shown in screenshot: light on dark).

"C" - toggles between light, dark and no coordinates (shown in screenshot: light)

"S" - toggles the Game status screen on and off

"M" - toggles the Message center on and off

"D" - toggles the Dice roller on and off

"L" - toggles the LOS tool on and off

"A" - toggles the alteration tool on and off

"T" - toggles the template tool on and off

If I add more tools into the game, I'll add a button for them here.

5) The two lines of text in the bottom left corner of the screen are the "mouse over information" lines. The first line ("Line-of-Sight tool") shows a title for whatever your mouse is over - in this case the mouse was over the gaming board and since the LOS tool was active, this text was shown. The second line shows information regarding whatever your mouse is over - this can be generic information ("Grass is easy to move over") or help on how to use some feature of the client (such as the line you see in the screenshot). This portion of the client will be changed so that the second line will extend over two lines to allow more text to be displayed (such as very long unit description lines).

6) The "Hide mark" button is shown when you have clicked on a "check this placement" link in the game log window. Click the button to hide the placement you had chosen to view.

7) The "Send mark" button is shown when your Template tool is active, and is used to send your template placement to other players.

8) The "Hide F-LOS" button works just like "Hide mark" - it'll hide whatever foreign LOS placement you've chosen to view from the game log. The number next to the button shows the distance for that particular LOS check in inches.

9) The "Submit LOS" button is shown when your LOS tool is active. When you click on this button, your LOS lines are sent to other players AND the distance for your (green) distance line is shown next to the button. The distance .read-out remains blank untill you send your LOS setup to other players.

10) The "Reveal unit" button, once clicked, allows you to select a hidden unit (belonging to your army) to reveal.

11) The "Hide unit" button works the same way, but is used to hide your units.

12) The "Alter squad" button allows you to select one of your units and assign it to another squad (you'll get a small popup where to enter the new squad number).

13) The "Alter note" button works just like the squad button, except that it changes the description line of the selected unit.

14) The "Delete unit" permanently removes the unit you select (right now it does not confirm that you really want to remove the unit, either).

15) The "Reserves" area is where your units appear at first when you choose to deploy them in the beginning of the game. You can keep them there if you want to (for later deployment onto the battlefield) or drag them over to the gaming board. Any units, their movement or alterations within this area won't show up to other players. If for whatever reason you want to temporarely remove a unit from the battlefield you can drag it here (or hide it with the alteration tool, either way works).

16) The "No chats active" textfield is used for debugging purposes. I use it to display information when I'm testing new code and also to notify me if something goes wrong. It won't be in the final client, although I might keep it somewhere within the client during playtesting so that any errors you run into can be reported to me.

17) In the background of all this you can see a rather barren, grassy battlefield. The grass and scenery objects look darker than they normally would because the "Grid" tool is active. To better bring out the units from the background, the grid applies a dark tint to the scenery in "light on dark" mode and a light tint in "dark on light" mode (there are two modes so that the grid is usable on both dark and light backgrounds - such as grass and snow). If you hide the grid, the tint goes away.

You can also see letter / number combinations such as E2, F3 in there - this is the "Coordinates" tool. It can be used for indicating where each player deploys their forces, for example. The Grid and Coordinates tools are toggled separately, so you can have one without the other (the Coordinates tool does not apply a tint behind it).

18) As explained before, the lines you see on the right side of the gaming board are LOS and distance lines. Your LOS tool's distance line is always green and the LOS lines are always red. If you click on a LOS link in the game log window, the displayed distance line is yellow and LOS lines are orange - this way you can tell them apart if you are comparing your own LOS setup to someone else's (or another, older placement of yours). Your LOS lines are always drawn on top of the game log -linked LOS lines.

19) The semi-transparent orange and red markers are weapon templates (there's a third template, a smaller blast marker, also available but it's not shown in the screenshot). The red one is your template tool, the orange one is game log -linked (in this case the Orks', who apparently refuse to believe that their flamer can't reach the Space Marines..). Once again your templates are drawn on top of game log -linked templates, although it doesn't matter much since either way templates are 50% transparent.

20) The unit markers are the bright green and bright red things. There are three Ork troops behind the rock, opposed by two Space Marine troops and a Whirlwind. You can see here the level of detail I'm going to use in unit markers - they're not meant to be straight copies of the real units since those are GW's property.

Now then .. Any questions about what you see here?
« Last Edit: February 9, 2005, 06:03:06 AM by Alpha »

Offline 'Mark'

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #31 on: February 9, 2005, 08:17:30 AM »
just.... WOW!

Can't even come up with any questions.... but it looks great and I can't wait 'till it comes out!

Well, that's basically all I've got to say... feel guilty after such a long post by you..


Oh, you are correct about the sizes of the templates.

Offline Roy

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #32 on: February 9, 2005, 09:28:25 AM »
Well, Skijunkies BloodBowl client is still up and running, along with the fumbbl site.

Course, that just promotes the games, and creates free PR for GW, so I don't think they really care. THe online community was responsible for bringing back BB in the first place.

I'll have to take a look into this client if I can - thanks for the heads-up.

No prob. the Fumbbl site is located here

Skijunkies client is a Java client, but manages to incorporate alsmost all the bloodbowl rules. The site is huge, with thousands of bloodbowlers, online rosters for all teams, + experimental teams.

Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #33 on: February 9, 2005, 02:45:51 PM »
This looks very impressive.
A couple of thoughts:

You could get round the scatter dice problem by having a random direction generator, a compass arrow that spins or something. As scatter dice have a 1 in x chance of hitting, roll a d6 to see if it hits and then use the spinner.

I don't know if this is possible, but if you don't store the army files on the server, and people write them and load them into the game each time, you will not be storing copyrighted property.  I don't know the legal ins and outs, but I would imagine there are less problems if two people load their lists into what is effectively a private chat than if you find out you have large numbers of lists with ws,bs,s,t etc stored on your server. If you have large numbers of them, it would be impossible to check that they are all copyright free. If your players choose to email each other their own list files containing copyrighted material, that is not your problem..

A useful feature of the dice roller would be if you could specify how many roll above a certain number as horde armies can roll 60+ dice in combat for one unit.

Drag a unit. If your system can differentiate between different units (ie a space marine tactical squad, a terminator squad) then the ability to drag the whole unit as one would speed up gameplay. Useful but not essential as beign able to move them separately is more important.

Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #34 on: February 9, 2005, 03:29:46 PM »
Skijunkies client is a Java client, but manages to incorporate alsmost all the bloodbowl rules. The site is huge, with thousands of bloodbowlers, online rosters for all teams, + experimental teams.

The site seems to be huge alright, as I was unable to find screenshots of the java client in action. I tried running it, but clearly it does not like Opera. Do you happen to know where I could see screenshots of it?

You could get round the scatter dice problem by having a random direction generator, a compass arrow that spins or something. As scatter dice have a 1 in x chance of hitting, roll a d6 to see if it hits and then use the spinner.

That's a good idea - I'll see if I can somehow implement it. I also realized that right now moving the blast markers around does not show how many inches the marker was moved - which makes measuring scattering shots tough. I imagine the best way to do this would be to let the player position the marker, submit its position so that others see where he is trying to aim, then click another button which actually checks if it hits and where it scatters if it doesn't. Clearly this would make ordnance much easier to handle as right now you have to place the marker, submit its position, roll dice for scatter, roll dice for scatter distance, move the marker and re-submit its position.

I don't know if this is possible, but if you don't store the army files on the server, and people write them and load them into the game each time, you will not be storing copyrighted property

Theoretically it would be possible to store the army files on each player's own computer, but this would make the client harder to use. Since every player would have to have every army file their opponent might use, they'd have to send and receive army files whenever a new army lineup was used in a game. With the current system you can play from any computer that has an internet connection, web browser and Flash 6 or 7 installed. No need for local files or setting up anything - just visit the client website and it's all there.

Assuming the client doesn't mangle game data due to a programming error, that is.

A useful feature of the dice roller would be if you could specify how many roll above a certain number as horde armies can roll 60+ dice in combat for one unit.

That's an excellent idea - I'll add it to my to-do list. This is exactly why I needed to get real WH40k players involved; I wouldn't have realized the need for such a feature myself.

Drag a unit. If your system can differentiate between different units (ie a space marine tactical squad, a terminator squad) then the ability to drag the whole unit as one would speed up gameplay. Useful but not essential as beign able to move them separately is more important.

I toyed with this idea early on - in fact it was the original reason for including squad numbers - but turning the idea into reality turned out to be a bigger task than I anticipated. I haven't abandoned the idea, though, it's just not the next thing I'm going to work on (next comes the game creation screen and adding password check to the game browser). I'll look into it again at a later time.

Thank you for your ideas! They're very welcome.

Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2005, 12:54:26 AM »
I've given some more thought to the execution of scattered shots. Going by the guideline "provide tools to follow rules, not the rules themselves", I realized that I can't in fact make a tool which automatically does the following (after user has placed template):

1) roll to determine if the shot scatters
2) if it does, roll distance
3) adjust template

Why? Because this would effectively re-create the official rule and that's a no-no. Instead I'll go with a slightly improved version of the original method I had in place and do this (after user has placed template):

1) let the user roll to-hit
2) if user determines (by interpreting the rules) the shot scattered, let them click a button to activate a direction spinner
3) let the user roll distance and adjust template accordingly to the spinner

The improvement is small furry spider's spinner/compass idea - ealier I had figured the rulebook's D6 method would be "good enough" but the spinner is much better, allowing for more random scattering.

Offline Roy

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2005, 03:34:34 AM »
Skijunkies client is a Java client, but manages to incorporate alsmost all the bloodbowl rules. The site is huge, with thousands of bloodbowlers, online rosters for all teams, + experimental teams.

The site seems to be huge alright, as I was unable to find screenshots of the java client in action. I tried running it, but clearly it does not like Opera. Do you happen to know where I could see screenshots of it?

it's an independant .jar file. You have to run it separately. I'm at work, and so have no screen shots to show you, but it's basically a 2D board that looks like a blood bowl field, with dugout. You get a screen up to begin with where you put in the parameters for the game, with links to rosters and so on.


Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2005, 08:49:17 AM »
it's an independant .jar file. You have to run it separately. I'm at work, and so have no screen shots to show you, but it's basically a 2D board that looks like a blood bowl field, with dugout. You get a screen up to begin with where you put in the parameters for the game, with links to rosters and so on.

That would explain why it didn't work.. Well, you mentioned that it incorporates official BB rules and that's probably the most important thing about it to me. Interesting that GW would not make a big fuss about the client, but perhaps the fact that they were about to drop the game (?) has something to do with it. In any case, with Battleboard I'm going to stick to the "no rules" approach. Not just for legal reasons, but because it's easier to make a client that only provides tools for playing instead of also supervising that rules are followed (especially since GW can and will change the rules).

And speaking of BB, I've made some progress since my last post: the game creation screen is now in place and with the help of new PHP code, able to create a game. Here's a sneak peek of what it looks like, with some added graphical flare to boot:



It should be pretty simple to understand. One thing I will likely add is some kind of terrain file indicator. Right now you only have a list of terrain files, from which you select the one you want by clicking on the name (the terrain is loaded into the background so that you can preview it), but there's no indication which terrain you actually selected. A textfield with the selected terrain's name should fix that problem.

Also - the note about password-less games not being suspendable doesn't mean much right now because you can't presently re-join a game from which you disconnected earlier (well, you can, but the game board won't look the same it did when you left). The idea is that if you give your game a password, players can leave it mid-game and return to it later. If no password is given, the game file will be erased when the last player leaves. This functionality is not yet in.

Thoughts, anyone?

Offline Evil Ninja

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2005, 09:04:47 AM »
I think your doing a damn good job with this so far, especialy if it ts by yourself (and some PMed help). Seriously, keep this stuff up and i think it can help a  lot of people, wether they have played or are starting 40K.

Question, is that white side box going to be a list of maps (or the map selected) or the game listings?

Offline Alpha

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Re: Warhammer 40,000 online; tabletop style?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2005, 09:35:35 AM »
Question, is that white side box going to be a list of maps (or the map selected) or the game listings?

The white area is a list of terrain (map) files currently stored on the server. "Grasslands" is the "rather barren terrain" I use for testing purposes.

The game browser is split into two sub-pages: the game list page, which allows you to list and join games and the game creation page (shown above) which facilitates game setup. Once I add password checking and touch up the game list graphics-wise, I'll post a screenshot of it, too.

 


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