News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?  (Read 25745 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Drizzle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 668
  • Country: 00
"Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« on: July 22, 2008, 03:06:37 PM »
I played a 2,500 point game last night with my friend, who was running a horde-nid army. By my turn at the bottom of turn 4, I was leading in Kill Points something like 12-3. He still had well over half of his force alive on the table, but as he was running mostly hordes of gaunts, I want targetting his Zoanthropes and Warriors early on to break synapse. Add to this the fact that I wiped out a unit of Without Number gaunts, who were then easily broken every turn, and the fact that lictors each count as one Kill Point, and his army effectively couldnt be played against mine.

Now, survivng those last few turns was rather difficult, but I only had something like 11 Points in my whole army, meaning he would have to wipe me out to a model before he could win. How was he supposed to deal with my Land Raider?

IMO, Kill Points were a horrible idea, and I'm fairly certain we'll just House Rule the old Victory Points back. What are your thoughts?
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but only Chaos gives you eyes inside your mouth.
I also do agree with Sanctjud with what he is saying.

A typo, sure, but still eerily accurate...
(Sentinels are) "A heavy weapons team on stilts and raped in plywood" if you were.

Offline EngeKomkommer

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 230
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2008, 04:29:30 PM »
Now play him with objectives.
With 2/3 of the time your playing objective based missions, he technicly has the advantage. You just got lucky with the type of mission.

Offline Agamemnon-2.0

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • The Mask Behind the Man
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 04:35:23 PM »
Before, it was said that 40k was won based on who gets the first turn. Now, it's won based on who gets what mission. You might as well just not play certain matchups, since they're foregone conclusions thanks to the idiotic Kill Points rules.
The 31st Saros Penal Regiment - 9 wins, 8 losses, 6 draws

Offline Lonewolf

  • Cthulhu cultist, The Final Solution | Swarmlord | Staff Soap Spotter
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4558
  • Country: de
  • Murdering armies since 2003 - retired since 2012
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 04:37:24 PM »
For the next tourny i organize, i will bring VP back. I think i will solve the KP issue by making every KP worth:

Point limit of army, divided by the total number of KP in army

So lets say, you have got an army with 10 KP and are playing 1500p. Every KP would be worth 150p. At the same point limit, an army with just 5 KP would give away 300 VP per KP.

For the mission with those many mission markers, i will probably take the old rules of the last ed. loot counter mission.

And for the objectives in deployment zone mission, i will have to think about a suitable amount of VP when you take it, probably around half the point limit.


No problem, I'll give you a 100% increase in pay effective immediately and retroactive to 1999.

Offline Banned Solorg

  • WAAAAAAAaaaaaban...
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4284
  • Orks is never beaten. only banned
    • Tellyport to the Ork Board Now
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 04:53:31 PM »
I haven't had enough experience yet to say whether Kill Points were a good or bad idea.  But it did seem odd that killing a 500 point unit nets you 1 Kill Point while taking out a 75 point unit also nets you 1 Kill Point.

In a real war, what kind of measure of victory is that?

I think time will tell whether this was overall a good or bad plan.
BANNED - because spamming catches up with you in the end.  Especially someone who uses a school server to host Orks and loli.

Orks iz BEST cause we were made to FIGHT and WIN

Offline bca11

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Country: 00
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 08:05:47 PM »
I think its really stupid too.  It really puts swarms at a disadvantage (this coming from someone who like to field rather elite armies of eldar).  I think they did a poor job balancing the missions.  It really does come down to choice of mission as to who wins now, all other things being equal.

Offline malicant

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1031
  • Country: ie
  • "It is not blood that binds us..."
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 08:13:52 PM »
This never actually occurred to me but I see now how good a point this is.  In a fluffy way, it suits that some missions would suit some armies than others but in game terms it shouldn't really be like that, the armies should have an equal chance.

Offline Gwaihir

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2830
  • Country: 00
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 08:20:51 PM »
The way the missions are set up encourages balanced armies.  Use too many units and you are punished in KP missions.  Use to few and you are punished objective missions.  It is important to balance out your force so that neither mission type causes too much trouble.   Armies that self-imbalance to do better in objective missions get punished for it.  Armies that self-imbalance for KP missions get punished for it.    I think it makes things interesting.


Read the story behind custom titles and tell us about yours.


"You cannot win tommorow, for you do not know why we fight today."  --Farseer Fa'alorath, Craftworld Fa'alnor-The Fate Weavers.

Offline bca11

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Country: 00
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 08:35:21 PM »
Maybe, but some armies simply lend themselves to a higher number of units than others.  Tyranids and orks are good examples.  While you could have a super nob army or a bugzilla army, not everyone wants that (or particularly feels like playing that).

Offline coredump

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1695
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
I think it is a bit early to decide if it is 'stupid' or not.  Like any change, it takes some adjustments.

Yes, running 3 zoans and 3 lictors is 6 KP for only 430pts. So don't run those....
Then again, the Zoan has a 2+/6++ save, and should be in 4++ cover. So if you take too much time killing it, the rest of his army should be able to table you. The Lictor should be getting a 2++ cover save. So it is also difficult to kill.
In 4E decisions were made dependent on victory points, now they will be made dependent on kill points.

And yeah, it was a less than great move to be running WoN gaunts, especially if he didn't have enough synapse for them when they respawn. 

Every change will make some units better/worse than they were before, KP is no exception. I think your friend needs to rethink his army choices, then see how the next game goes.
In the past the sun moved around the Earth.
This is fifth edition! You are wrong, your opponent is right.
-Finoro
Glancing hits suck my face off now
-YuenglingDragon
RAI is used by people who want rules to mean what they want it to instead of what it says in the book.
RAW is used by people who want rules to mean what they want it to instead of what it says in the book.
-Hymirl

Offline Drizzle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 668
  • Country: 00
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 10:34:19 PM »
Then again, the Zoan has a 2+/6++ save, and should be in 4++ cover. So if you take too much time killing it, the rest of his army should be able to table you. The Lictor should be getting a 2++ cover save. So it is also difficult to kill.

Oddly enough, I killed all of his lictors in CC, after he got off the charge. Bad rolling on his part mostly.

And yeah, it was a less than great move to be running WoN gaunts, especially if he didn't have enough synapse for them when they respawn. 

Every change will make some units better/worse than they were before, KP is no exception. I think your friend needs to rethink his army choices, then see how the next game goes.

I agree here, and most of his mistakes were made because this was his first 5th ed game, and ive only played one or two before. Like everyone else, we're making mistakes and learning as well. I think in time we'll be able to build armies around the new rules, I just think its silly to need a whole new system when VPs seemed so efficient and balanced. That's the general gist of my thread, i guess.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but only Chaos gives you eyes inside your mouth.
I also do agree with Sanctjud with what he is saying.

A typo, sure, but still eerily accurate...
(Sentinels are) "A heavy weapons team on stilts and raped in plywood" if you were.

Offline Another Random Geek

  • Grot
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 225
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 10:43:39 PM »
I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this, but when I split up my Tactical Squads into combat squads, is each combat squad worth a kill point or do they have to wipe out the whole tactical squad?

Offline Lucky_Jackal

  • I feel akword
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2530
  • "What can I say? It's not my cup of tea."
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 11:55:19 PM »
Maybe, but some armies simply lend themselves to a higher number of units than others.  Tyranids and orks are good examples.  While you could have a super nob army or a bugzilla army, not everyone wants that (or particularly feels like playing that).

The nids got bit or a atvantage in that gaunt broods can be HUGE or tiny.

most people may take 32 spine gaunts for example but break them into two units or 16. Well if your playing KP you could in theory just combind the two broods of 16 into one brood of 32 on the spot.

The point coasts are exactly the same you just moved there FOC spot. Doing that completly fixs the problem on the most part for nids. Thow it will be interesting to see if people will allow this or not. since realy there is a good argument for either side.

Offline Qui-Gon Jinn

  • Jedi Master of the Editorial Order, TechMarine
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3387
  • Country: 00
  • May the Force be with you!
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 11:56:50 PM »
If you read the entry for the "Combat Squads" rule, they each count as a seperate unit, entirely.  So, that means:
=1 KP
=1 unit for DoW setup
=1 unit to contest/score

I am personally liking the Kill Point system.  It, as stated, leads itself for players to balance their list.  The right amount of Troops, Elites, Fast and Heavy are all needed.

Chaos Daemon Army
The Army in all its glory!
The Battle Reports of the Army

W/L/D
55/11/7

Chaos Poster of 2009!
Bow before me! :P

Offline BaconTaser

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 703
  • Country: ca
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 12:42:39 AM »
Haven`t tried it yet, but i see that it is unbalanced at some point and some people with Chaos Armies,Space Marines and anything that maxes out lots of pts on squads to have less KP against their enemies is what worries me.Chaos would be even more mad to start making army lists with 20 marines in one squad for one KP, now that's a kick in the croutch.

If i would of rolled for that mission, i'd agreed with my opponent that both of our armies would have equal numbers of KPs as close as possible.

I personnaly don't like the idea that you make an armylist before rolling for missions and type of deployement, but hey, what's important is that both opponent agrees with each other for preparations and having a good time.But it could be because that i was hugging my 4th edition mini rule book too often and that now with 5th out, it does make games more simplified and random.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 12:46:38 AM by Servo Viking, Awesome Champion of EMVP »

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

  • Sullied Smug
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
  • Country: england
  • It's ok to be scared...
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 02:18:55 AM »
it does. i have struggled to play tau in 5th and a good friends off mine has yet to find a decent IG setup.

I have had to stop using devilfish with drones as they give up 2 KP's. 80 points basic worth the same as two fully kitted plague marine units. yeah right.

Last night i had to try and shift 4 x10 man squads of plaque marines off of objectives, which proved very difficult, with all the cover. not even focusing my entire armies firepower on 1 unit a turn was enough (and trust me that is a bag of fire...). His army weighed in with 8 KP's in total.

Lord,
2 x plague marines on foot
2 x plague marines in a rhino
2 x 7 man havoc squads
 
Whilst i see what GW have tried to do with ensuring that troops are balanced with other slots, by enforcing troops only score and then bringing KP in to minimise hordes, the balance has simply gone to those armies that have strong troops choices, with flexible options, as the potent forces.

These can keep the kill points low, by maintain smallish sturdy squads but still be able to deal with most, if not all situations.

I have yet to find a balanced tau force that can compete in all scenarios. I would be interested in anyone who has one.

Whilst VP's had their issues at least they were balanced with the quality of the thing you killed.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 675
  • God from a machine.
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 02:32:31 AM »
Yes, Kill Points is severely limiting to many armies. When playing Imperial Guard, for instance, things get terribly difficult to balance. Indeed, almost impossible unless you happen to be running a Grenadier army and even that isn't ideal.
Marines: 1 troop choice, 200 points: 1kp
Guard: 1 troop choice, 200 points, 4kp

The biggest problem is that there's no way to get around it. If you roll a KP based mission, you lose, almost guaranteed. If you roll an objective mission, you have a distinct advantage, but most well-balanced armies still have a chance. I mean, the most standard way for a Guard player to fill out his compulsary slots:

HQ command Squad
Platoon (1 hq, 2 squads)
Armored Fist (1 squad, 1 chimera)

Thanks to the way Kill points are set up, each of those command squads is worth 2kp. So, to fill their compulsary slots without going doctrined, a Guard army has to take a whopping 8 Kill points. Anyone else has three.  >:(

If I play Guard, I'm using Lonewolf's balanced KP method. Otherwise it becomes effectively impossible to win. Any suggestions to rebalance Objective missions to balance this out?

Offline Lorizael

  • GW Shill: Infinity Circuit: Synergistic Spotter of Numpties
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6784
  • Country: 00
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 07:04:32 AM »
It seems like everyone must play in some very competetive environments.
I'm playing the same armies in 5th as I did in 4th, little or no changes to my setup at all. Sod KP and how many troops I have, I just play the game :)

Offline Lonewolf

  • Cthulhu cultist, The Final Solution | Swarmlord | Staff Soap Spotter
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4558
  • Country: de
  • Murdering armies since 2003 - retired since 2012
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2008, 07:14:31 AM »
It seems like everyone must play in some very competetive environments.
I'm playing the same armies in 5th as I did in 4th, little or no changes to my setup at all. Sod KP and how many troops I have, I just play the game :)

"Change we can believe in" is the message of the time Lor, be it presidents or armylists  :P


No problem, I'll give you a 100% increase in pay effective immediately and retroactive to 1999.

Offline ESHARP

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 200
Re: "Kills Points" neuters some armies?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 07:37:43 AM »
Since Zoanthropes and Biovores are each a single squad that is allowed to deploy independent of each other, wouldn't the killpoint value be just one point for the entire squad instead of 1 KP each?

 


Powered by EzPortal