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Author Topic: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?  (Read 1248 times)

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Offline Chaosdad

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How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« on: September 10, 2010, 06:47:09 PM »
I'm a Daemon player (please hold your boos till the end) but in our game club we have a Necron player. He players your typical Cron list (not the fear one).   I have to give him a lot of credit because he can at least hold his own against a lot of people until he meets the 5th Edition players.  Space Wolves, Nids, and BAs just plain move across the board too fast and overwhelm him.  IG takes out his Monoliths pretty fast and that about the end of everything from there.  Ive been accidentally learning his army from asking questions and watching his games and am curious if some of you Cron pros fall fast to these armies also?  Id love to see this army with a new codex as them seem very fun to play, but I just don't see them as very competitive as they are.  I know there are exceptionally tactical players who can use them with some success, but even those players must really have their limits due to the army.  I'm curious to hear any thoughts or input the more experienced players may have.

Offline enlg

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 07:39:24 PM »
well could you explain/give an outline of what his army lists are for certain points values?

I'm not a necron vet but the list should have an impact on how he plays a lot vs such armies.

Offline Chaosdad

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 08:05:49 PM »
Our games are usually 1850 points and he takes pretty close to the same army each time since we all randomize what game we will be playing and who we are playing to avoid people building tailored lists.  I know he runs 20-30 warriors, 2 Monoliths, a Wraithtlord, an Orb Lord, 2 squads of destroyers and a heavy destroyer?   His tactics are to hold his Warriors in reserve while using the Liths as cover why he shoots with the Destroyers at whatever is threatening him.  His Orb Lord sticks with the Warriors who is also protected by the Wraithlord.  So basically he is hiding his Warriors by the Monoliths and porting them through when needed to avoid trouble.  His Destroyers he uses to keep things away.  Ive seen him with some Scarabs and a Tomb Spider before too, but I'm not too sure what uses they have.  Sorry if I am being vague, but I am just learning, sharing my observations and trying to learn a little about the army.

Offline NecronCell2131

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 08:14:07 PM »
 BAs arent that tough
 SW pretty much the same as the rest of the marines easy
 IG is tough when they load up on lascannons
 Tyranids are hard for me when they are full of big creatures or poison attack to take out the ctan i took for those big creatures.


 I run the typical necron list sometime destroyer heavy but recently ive fallen in love and won almost every game running 3 monos and a big unit of immortals at 1500 points.

 Hes got the tactics right with the monoliths they seem to last longer if i am ballzy with them instead of hiding back with them.

 Id suggest him try immortals and trying 2 squads of 10 warriors instead. Theres a thread around here that moc065 did i think that was how to convert warriors into immortals that was pretty sweet.

 Id suggest him try out a ctan against the marines and tyranids not the IG before they are gone from the codex
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Offline Foxfire

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 07:09:21 PM »
I've been facing these problems in a big way myself, ever since my group fully embraced 5th edition, our IG player got back to playing games, and our Tyranid player actually read the Tervigon entry fully.  Necrons did take a big hit, in my opinion, but Moc and Gutstikk helped me out a bit, and I think that going in with a 5th edition mindset to begin with really helps.

First of all, volley fire can't be relied on like in past editions.  Tau and Necrons both rely on it pretty heavily, but universal cover saves usually cut its efficiency in half (fortunately for Tau, they can markerlight cover away, but Necrons have no such luck).  This means that Destroyers, one of our old stand-byes, will only be half as effective at swarm killing, one of their primary functions.  Because the three swarmiest armies in the game are now all very competitive, this puts us in a hard situation.  Wraithwing, a tactic where the Necron player fills out his Fast Attack slots with Wraiths instead of Destroyers (and a tactic which I never really liked before) has become perhaps more viable than the traditional Destroyer-heavy army.  Furthermore, I find opponents so fast now that Immortals and Warriors have lost a lot of their potency as well.

As for the Monoliths, I find that to be something of a toss-up.  They're even harder to kill than they used to be, which is really nice for contesting objectives or driving inexorably up the middle.  However, what made the Monolith really special (in my view) was the complete control over melee that it used to give the Necron player.  Because Necron units (primarily Warriors) are no longer reliable to take a few turns of abuse in close combat, you can't use them as a buffer for melee armies anymore, which used to be one my main tactics (move forward to meet the enemy assault, move all of your fire power to safety, then teleport the Warriors out of harm's way and open up). 

One way to overcome the fact that our shooting isn't as effective and that we aren't as strong in CC is simply changing the way you look at Necron strategy, something which took me a long time to get used to.  Melee is no longer a controllable current that you can stymie using unkillable Warrior units and teleportation tricks, but now something you'll need to meet head-on and may need to bank on winning a few.  Wraiths can be good for this, not to mention Tomb Spyders and C'tan (some will argue for Pariahs, which I've always found to be a cool unit, but mine always die before they make it within ability-range). 

So, rather than being a volley army as we were in past editions, it might be worthwhile for your friend to look into alternative playstyles.  If you plan to rely on Wraiths, taking other army elements which make soften up their enemies may be crucial.  I went from Warrior/Destroyer/Monolith centric armies to a Wraith/Heavy Destroyer/Combat Lord setup, having just accepted that every opponent I had was going to shrug off my Destroyer and Immortal fire like it was nothing, meaning I needed to get up to where there were no cover saves.  I basically just ignore swarms at range anymore, since I can't find a cost-effective way to kill them.  Tomb Spyders are good against Marines, I've heard (we don't have many in my group), and Monoliths can still be pretty intimidating.  If he looks into alternative unit selections and army viewpoints, I think he can still do well even against 5th edition armies, though I do suspect he will continue to be the underdog since the Necron codex is comparatively dated.

Bear objectives in mind, too.  I often spend the entire game losing only to pull a draw or a win at the last second because I used my Flayed Ones to Outflank and grabbed or contested a Control Point, used Veil of Darkness to do the same, used my Monolith as an unkillable hunk of living metal to camp out on an objective, or made sure to get my damaged units out of the danger zone before my enemy could claim their killpoint.

Offline Spacefrisian

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 02:44:29 AM »
What about the ideas/tactics  presented by Wayofsaimhann on Youtube?
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 03:39:08 PM »
There's a massive play-by-play in the sticky threads on this forum highlighting Moc's Necron army taking apart a blood angels army - it was close but it appears the Necrons have the upper hand through most of the match.

By all means you could simply refer him to this forum and tell him we look forward to discussing Necrons with him. Necrons are my most competitive 5th edition army, followed by Orks [which I tend to tone down or this might be reversed].

Offline Chaosdad

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 09:03:56 PM »
Thanks for the reply's everyone.  He's been playing longer than me, but maybe he hasn't seen these forums yet so I will direct him here.  I don't understand anything about the Tomb Spiders, Immortals, Wraiths, ect, but I'm sure he will have a good idea what you all mean.  When I was introduced to the game, I really liked the Necrons myself until several people talked me out of them due to the old codex, but I hope to play them someday.  I think they are a very neat army.  I hope you Cronies get a new codex soon.

Offline moc065

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Re: How do you beating 5th Edition Codex ?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 10:48:33 AM »
Invite him in here and steer him towards the "Guide to Necrons" as its fully 5th Ed friendly, and it does have some ideas that helped me to transition over to 5th. I also included little linky's to things like tutorials on how to do certian covnertions within that guide. Oh and don't for an instant think that I am smart, as the Guide is actually a compilation that I stole/borrowed from many other Necron players.

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