Topic: Is this fair?

[Rx8Speed]

hey guys, I have a buddy who is thinking about getting into 40k. I want to make 2 lists out of my two armies. I'll let him choose the one he wants to play. Do these look fair? If not what can I do to balance them? Here's the lists:

++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1850pts) ++
Chapter Tactics * [Ultramarines]
+ HQ (220pts) +
Librarian (125pts) [Mastery Level 2]
    Terminator Armour [Force Stave, Storm Shield]
Techmarine (95pts) [Auspex, Bolt Pistol, Power Axe, Servo-harness]
+ Elites (465pts) +
Command Squad (275pts) [Apothecary]
    Veteran [Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs, Meltagun, Storm Shield]
    Veteran [Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs, Meltagun, Storm Shield]
    Veteran [Meltagun, Power Fist, Storm Shield]
    Veteran [Meltagun, Power Fist, Storm Shield]
Ironclad Dreadnoughts (190pts)
    Ironclad Dreadnought [Ironclad Assault Launchers]
        Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
        Power Fist [Heavy Flamer]
        Seismic Hammer [Heavy Flamer]
+ Troops (470pts) +
Tactical Squad (235pts) [Grav-cannon and Grav-amp, Plasma Gun, Rhino, 9x Space Marines]
    Space Marine Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Combi-plasma]
Tactical Squad (235pts) [Grav-cannon and Grav-amp, Plasma Gun, 9x Space Marines]
    Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
    Space Marine Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Combi-plasma]
+ Fast Attack (115pts) +
Stormtalon Gunship (115pts) [Skyhammer Missle Launcher]
+ Heavy Support (580pts) +
Devastator Squad (170pts) [Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), 4x Space Marines]
    Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak) [4x Add Flakk Missiles]
    Space Marine Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]
Devastator Squad (150pts) [4x Lascannon, 4x Space Marines]
    Space Marine Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Boltgun]
Land Raider Redeemer (260pts) [Extra Armour, Multi-melta]

TOTAL 1850pts


++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1278pts) ++
+ HQ (135pts) +
Farseer (135pts) [Farseer Skyrunner, Shuriken Pistol, Singing spear, The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan
+ Elites (528pts) +
Striking Scorpions (193pts) [8x Striking Scorpion]
    Striking Scorpion Exarch [Scorpion's Claw and Scorpion Chainsword]
Wraithguard (335pts)
    Wave Serpent [Shuriken cannon, Twin-linked scatter lasers]
    5x Wraithguard [5x D-scythe]
+ Troops (305pts) +
Guardian Defenders (244pts) [11x Guardian, Platform with Starcannon]
    Wave Serpent [Shuriken cannon, Twin-linked scatter lasers]
Windriders (61pts) [Windrider with Shuriken cannon, 2x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult]
+ Fast Attack (185pts) +
Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)
+ Heavy Support (125pts) +
Fire Prisms (125pts)
    Fire Prism [Twin-linked shuriken catapults]
++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (570pts) ++

+ Formation (570pts) +
Aspect Host (570pts) [+1 Weapon Skill]
    Dark Reapers
        6x Dark Reaper [6x Starshot missiles]
        Dark Reaper Exarch
            Reaper launcher [Starshot Missiles]
    Warp Spiders [7x Warp Spider]
        Warp Spider Exarch [Death Spinner]
    Warp Spiders [7x Warp Spider]
        Warp Spider Exarch [Death Spinner]

TOTAL 1848pts

[Fenris]

I think you should include the aspect host into the CAD and it would be fair, however I would consider starting with lower amount of points, unless your buddy is already into boardgaming.
If your buddy is entirely new to it, I suggest you take 1 HQ +2 Troops, (infantry only) each for a 500p game. Then you can crank it up with transports, jetbikes and psykers, etc.

Something like this:
Captain
10x Tactical marines
10x Marine Scouts
versus
Autarch
10x Dire Avengers
20x Storm Guardians

[Cavalier]

Yeah I'd start small... an 1850 can be an enormous 4 hour marathon of endless rules for someone not familiar with the game. I was introduced to 40k playing 10 Marines vs 10 IG Veterans and that was enough to get me hooked. However I think Fenris suggestion is far better... perfect amount of stuff to that acts in all phases of the game (barring the psychic phase).

1850 I think is just too many points, and too many rules for someone who's never played before.

[davethemadorctwo]

to teach someone the basics best to play  'chess' - ie two identical forces - from the same codex - and imo marines are the easiest to start.

get 'cover', 'armour', and 'iv' saves sorted;  get 'rapid fire', 'overwatch' and 'assaulting' ; get 'moving and shooting' and 'running'
and get 'melee' and 'morale'...

imo i'd just start with something like three or four basic troop units per side - your first two games will be just to get rules mechanics correct - and leave out complicated stuff like psykers and flyers for a while

once he has mechanics down part of the fun is 'building' an army so decide on restrictions [ie only one vehicle or monstrous creature per side - no fancy characters ] and just crack on

enjoy

[Irisado]

Playing all infantry would be my suggestion too.  Infantry, for the most part, all share very similar or identical rules, so it makes learning the basics of the game much easier.  I'd also recommend that you avoid using too many units which incorporate weapons with a lot of special rules and units which have a lot of special rules.  Avoiding psykers is also recommended.

I appreciate that this might be a bit frustrating for an experienced player, especially when you want to demonstrate how exciting some of the more complex units can be to play, but remember the sheer number of rules can be very off putting initially for new players.  As a result, keeping a simple approach is highly advised.  Just think about the old starter sets that GW used to make for 40K and Fantasy.  They were aimed at people who had not played the game before, and kept things very simple in terms of models included.

There's no need to go so far as to play identical forces, in my opinion, as that removes some much needed diversity and background to the different races from an introductory game.

[sunstrider]

Yeah I'll echo everyone else's sentiments regarding smaller, simpler games in this case.

I've gotten 2 friends into 40k in the past and when I approached the intro games this way:
- I ran small games (2 units and a commander of some sort), not even 500 points I think
- I stripped some of the more complex rules out of the introductory games (like rules concerning cover, ordnance weapons, vehicles etc)
- also, tipping the scales in their favor to win initially is a good way to grow interest. Don't necessarily do it in overt ways, such as giving them a clearly larger army, in more subtle ways (such as having as many guardians as he has space marines, not having points equivalent amounts of both)
- don't really mention force organization and list building either. List building is already a complex topic and if you start talking about formations etc, that can only distance a new player in my opinion.

Using these guidelines, I got 2 people into the game who played, bought and painted regularly for about a year each, now they play less often but still love the lore and the aesthetics of it.

[Spectral Arbor]

I'm also going to add my voice to the 500 points or less crowd. Start on a 4x4 board with a little bit of terrain. Use something like an objective in each table quarter as the mission.

I would limit vehicles to a transport, maybe. I probably wouldn't use anything except units with a T value.

Using troops as your options is probably the best, with a single HQ model. Fewer rules is better in the beginning. Teaches the importance of board control, and focusing fire. Keeps the game about moving to secure the objectives, while applying damage to your opponent.

Marines:

Lv 1 Librarian - Divination

5x Scouts with Sniper Rifles

5x Tacticals with Plasma Gun

5x Tacticals with Plasma Gun

10x Assault Marines with Jump Packs, 2x Flamers, Eviscerator

[495, I think]


Then take something Eldar. One bike unit, one psyker, and some foot troops. Make one a sit'n'shoot unit. It's not the Eldar's strength, but you're showing off different aspects of the game in small scale.

Stick with CAD, for the love of the Emperor. Too many rules too early is going to make the game overly complicated.

[Iluvhir Strafermeyer]

I've gotten people into starting an army by playing small games with them as well.
I used to own a 2k p Marine army and we'd divide the models and play 1k vs 1k games.
The thing, I think, to remember about 40K is that it isn't just about playing games; you have to collect and paint an army as well. There is a lot of creativity involved in that. A great deal of fun.
The lore of 40K is extensive to say the least, as well. For nerds such as myself that is quite important.
So, to summarize, I would say that I got people into 40K by selling the combined fun of collecting, painting and playing games with your army. The lore adds depth to the army, making it grow on you.
I don't reckon it's all about playing the games.

[Wyddr]

I agree with everybody above--smaller is better to start.

That said, I will answer your initial question of "is this fair?"

I'd say yes, it is. I think the Marine list is a bit bloated (waaay too many points in that command squad), but it has the tools to defeat the Eldar list. The Eldar list is better, but Eldar only work if you know how to use them, so that advantage would be more-or-less nullified by his lack of experience if he chooses them.

Oh, and Eldar? Not a beginnner's army *at all.* They've got more special rules than the US tax code. One look at Warp Spiders and he'll want to go home.

[haunt]

Just a question, we know you have the 2 armies, which 1 will you let him play?

[davethemadorctwo]

"Just a question, we know you have the 2 armies, which 1 will you let him play?"

lol. we call them spi-dar.... and they jump jump jump around !

[Dread]

Just real quick, one of the things I've learned playing this game, is FAIR is a weak word. Each army has its strong points and after awhile most players discover them. So dont feel bad for any list you want to play.

[Rx8Speed]

Hey I'm really hearing you guys about running smaller forces! These are the armies that I will run instead with me commanding the eldar. The points are about the same with the space marines being a little heavier. I wanted to include combat characters on both sides to add a little more narrative to the game. I also chose to include a psychic character for both sides because let's be honest, casting spells is fun and the eldar spells that I will use will mainly just be guide and any of the other re-roll spells too because those are trivial to understand.

I also chose not to give the autarch the banshee mask to minimize the amount of special rules flying around even though it is a no brainer option for combat autarch in a unit of guardians! (not a unit I would ever run in an actual match).

I also decided that vehicles are just way too common and way too cool in wh40k these days to not include. So let me know what you think, anything I should add or take out?


++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Autarch [Avenger shuriken catapult, Haywire grenades, Plasma grenades, Power weapon, Shuriken pistol]

Farseer [Ghosthelm, Runes of the Farseer, Shuriken Pistol, Singing spear]
····Farseer Skyrunner [Twin-linked shuriken catapult]

+ Troops +

Guardian Defenders [Platform with Starcannon]
····10x Guardian [10x Plasma grenades, 10x Shuriken catapult]
····Wave Serpent [Serpent Field, Shuriken cannon, Twin-linked scatter lasers]

Windriders [Windrider with Shuriken cannon, 2x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult]

+ Fast Attack +

Vyper Squadron
····Vyper [Shuriken cannon, Starcannon]

+ Heavy Support +

Dark Reapers
····5x Dark Reaper [5x Reaper launcher (starswarm missiles)]



++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ (No Category) +

Chapter Tactics * [Ultramarines]

+ HQ +

Captain
····Captain
········Power Armour [Power Fist, Storm Shield]

Librarian [Mastery Level 2]
····Terminator Armour [Force Stave, Storm Bolter]

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [Plasma Gun, 4x Space Marines]
····Razorback [Twin-linked Heavy Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant [Combi-plasma]

Tactical Squad [Plasma Gun, 9x Space Marines]
····Space Marine Sergeant [Combi-plasma, Melta Bombs]

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), 4x Space Marines]
····Space Marine Sergeant [Signum]

[sunstrider]

Now those are some fun and easy looking lists. I think you really nailed them the second time around.

I hope you and your friend have fun! Let us know how it goes and if your friend has as much fun as you do

[Rx8Speed]

We played the lists pretty much as seen with a few exceptions.

The autarch was replaced with a fire prism, the guardians were given a warlock and the razorback was downgraded to a rhino and I threw another 4 marines into that unit! I gave my buddy the choice of army to play and he chose the eldar which I wasn't expecting. he was overwhelmed by the psychic powers since he had 2 psykers and 5 powers in total. In hindsight I shouldn't have included psykers. So to those of you who stated that earlier, you were right and have full 'I-told-you-so' rights! Even with that though the game went pretty smoothly, a little bit thanks to the fact that I killed his farseer in turn 3. The size was perfect. This was also my first game not playing in a LGS. We used a 38"x65" table and played the long way. Using wash clothes as ruins (no seeing units behind a cloth and cover for units on or touching the cloth) and it worked out very well. Victory to the eldar even without the farseer! We'll be having more games so the experience was a success overall! Hopefully adding the the terrain collection in the near future!